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Post by Orac on Oct 22, 2023 9:47:15 GMT
The UN is just another interest group. Like all the generations before us, we did not solve the moral problem of power. The problem is perhaps insoluble in principle and we should concentrate instead on achievable goals
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Post by see2 on Oct 22, 2023 13:25:48 GMT
The Palestinian Arabs made it perfectly clear in 1947 that they would destroy an Israeli state if it came into being. That threat was taken up by 5 Muslim armies all intent on annihilating Israel. The conflict between the Palestinian Jews and the Palestinian Arabs was instigated by the Palestinian Arabs. The threat of war was there before the declaration of independence by the Jews, the Palestinian Jews knew that the only way to get their homeland back was to declare independence. They Knew there were five Muslim armies waiting for them. Their first job was to take out the enclaves of anti Israeli fighters before they took on the Muslim armies otherwise they would be fighting the Muslim armies in front and anti Israeli fighters from behind them. The Palestinian Arabs were advised by the Muslim armies to move out of the way of their invasion, promising them that they would be able to soon return after Israel had be annihilated. Of course the Palestinians objected to having half their properties/land stolen, and to add insult to injury, israel encouraging and paying for plonking great cement apartment blocks where their fields used to be, blocking their access to the sea/trade, and being thrown out of the East Jerusalem granted to them by the UN not so long ago. Would you put up with being occupied by the nazis? The war against Israel was initiated by the Palestinian Arabs, had they won that war, they would have stolen ALL OF ISRAELI LAND. Why have you ignored that obvious point? The following years after the Arabs lost that war were marred by many many suicide attacks from the Arab areas, blowing up busses, marketing areas and any areas were Israelis could be killed. This forced the Israelis to make it more difficult for these terrorist acts to be committed. The Israelis decided that the answer was to make it more difficult for these terrorists to gain access into Israel and that stopping them should take place on their land. So began the first defense of Israel should take place on Palestinian Arab land. I believe it is right and proper to accept that the Arab decision, still held by many, to destroy Israel, is the initiator of all the problems that followed.
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 23, 2023 8:41:26 GMT
Of course the Palestinians objected to having half their properties/land stolen, and to add insult to injury, israel encouraging and paying for plonking great cement apartment blocks where their fields used to be, blocking their access to the sea/trade, and being thrown out of the East Jerusalem granted to them by the UN not so long ago. Would you put up with being occupied by the nazis? The war against Israel was initiated by the Palestinian Arabs, had they won that war, they would have stolen ALL OF ISRAELI LAND. Why have you ignored that obvious point? The following years after the Arabs lost that war were marred by many many suicide attacks from the Arab areas, blowing up busses, marketing areas and any areas were Israelis could be killed. This forced the Israelis to make it more difficult for these terrorist acts to be committed. The Israelis decided that the answer was to make it more difficult for these terrorists to gain access into Israel and that stopping them should take place on their land. So began the first defense of Israel should take place on Palestinian Arab land. I believe it is right and proper to accept that the Arab decision, still held by many, to destroy Israel, is the initiator of all the problems that followed. I dont come to conclusions based on "if...then" assumptions. There has never been a convincing argument for stealing land or water or controlling their economy. If anyone should have been treated with more humanity it was shrinking Palestine, ultimately up against the USA and close Israeli ally. The UN was never going to allow Palestine to become a legal nation in its own right. The situation which has eroded the existence of Palestine is within living memory. I was born just a year after the Nakba. If you say Israel has a right to protect itself, you must say Palestine has a right to exist without being eaten away from the inside. It should always have had the protection of the UN in law. I already explained why that never happened.
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 23, 2023 8:57:40 GMT
" The announcement of the UN acceptance of partition was met in Arab Palestine by a general strike and demonstrations; some—in Jerusalem and elsewhere—turned to destructive riots. Meanwhile, emboldened by the international imprimatur given by the UN decision, the Zionist military organizations attacked Arab villages and residential quarters before launching the highly organized campaigns of Plan Dalet starting in early April 1948. Villagers together with the more organized Arab volunteer and irregular forces defended their territory and attacked Zionist areas. This “civil war” phase of the 1947–49 Palestine war ended with Israel's declaration of statehood on 15 May 1948." www.palquest.org/en/highlight/159/un-partition-plan-1947#:~:text=Palestine%20partition%20plan%20proposed%20by,Committee%20on%20the%20Palestine%20Question.&text=On%2029%20November%201947%2C%20the,zone%20encompassing%20Jerusalem%20and%20Bethlehem). It might be of interest to you to know that it takes time after a vote for the propodal to be put into law. Especially when it is contested. The Palestinian Arabs made it perfectly clear in 1947 that they would destroy an Israeli state if it came into being. That threat was taken up by 5 Muslim armies all intent on annihilating Israel. The conflict between the Palestinian Jews and the Palestinian Arabs was instigated by the Palestinian Arabs. The threat of war was there before the declaration of independence by the Jews, the Palestinian Jews knew that the only way to get their homeland back was to declare independence. They Knew there were five Muslim armies waiting for them. Their first job was to take out the enclaves of anti Israeli fighters before they took on the Muslim armies otherwise they would be fighting the Muslim armies in front and anti Israeli fighters from behind them. The Palestinian Arabs were advised by the Muslim armies to move out of the way of their invasion, promising them that they would be able to soon return after Israel had be annihilated. The land around what is now Israel is a "homeland" referring to an ancient book with no clear history. The traceable homeland of Ashkenasi jews is Eastern Europe. The homeland of Sephardic Jews is northern Africa and southern Europe. The homeland of all people is Africa. So where are you placing your marker and more importantly why? OTOH the homeland of Christianity is in what is now Israel too. I dont subscribe to the arbitrary divine granting of a piece of land to a faith. The whole idea was justified by the generations of bigotry against a people of a certain faith. It is a foxhole which is protected by the very Christian and Muslim persecutors which made a place of safety inevitable. You may as well call it Mea Culpa. But i cannot justify the erosion of the population which lived there under the Ottoman Empire and before that. The Israeli slow land grab is IMO cause for an international agreement UNIMPEDED by the USA.
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Post by Vinny on Oct 23, 2023 9:04:46 GMT
Show me written evidence in quotation marks that Palestine was promised to the Palestinian Arabs. YouTube is not a reliable source of history or anything else for that matter. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control so lets not make out that they were promised Palestine as a bribe for their efforts. What right was it that allowed Britain and France to say Palestinian Arabs couldn't have land in their own region of the world? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_PalestineThe UN plan offered land to both. It was Amin Al Husseini's mob who tried to take the whole lot, and it backfired. Three Arab nations and his own private army invaded with the aim of destroying Israel.
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Post by see2 on Oct 23, 2023 11:25:17 GMT
The war against Israel was initiated by the Palestinian Arabs, had they won that war, they would have stolen ALL OF ISRAELI LAND. Why have you ignored that obvious point? The following years after the Arabs lost that war were marred by many many suicide attacks from the Arab areas, blowing up busses, marketing areas and any areas were Israelis could be killed. This forced the Israelis to make it more difficult for these terrorist acts to be committed. The Israelis decided that the answer was to make it more difficult for these terrorists to gain access into Israel and that stopping them should take place on their land. So began the first defense of Israel should take place on Palestinian Arab land. I believe it is right and proper to accept that the Arab decision, still held by many, to destroy Israel, is the initiator of all the problems that followed. I dont come to conclusions based on "if...then" assumptions. There has never been a convincing argument for stealing land or water or controlling their economy. If anyone should have been treated with more humanity it was shrinking Palestine, ultimately up against the USA and close Israeli ally. The UN was never going to allow Palestine to become a legal nation in its own right. The situation which has eroded the existence of Palestine is within living memory. I was born just a year after the Nakba. If you say Israel has a right to protect itself, you must say Palestine has a right to exist without being eaten away from the inside. It should always have had the protection of the UN in law. I already explained why that never happened. Neither do I, if you read and digest my posts you would know that. You have decided to ignore the history of a hundred plus years of persecution of the Jews by the Arabs. Not looking at where that persecution is largely to blame for the state of affairs that have existed in recent times. It is true that the Palestinian cause has deteriorated since they lost the war to annihilate Israel, that deterioration has taken place largely because of the continued aggression by the Palestinian Arabs and their buddies in the terrorist groups. And now apparently because an extreme right-wing government in Israel is every bit as aggressive to the Palestinian Arabs as they have been to Israel. The Israelis have always fought fire with fire, the terrorist groups of Hamas and Hezbollah are both very aware of that fact. In short you do not look at both sides of the coin choosing to put all the blame on the Israelis.
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 23, 2023 14:53:00 GMT
I dont come to conclusions based on "if...then" assumptions. There has never been a convincing argument for stealing land or water or controlling their economy. If anyone should have been treated with more humanity it was shrinking Palestine, ultimately up against the USA and close Israeli ally. The UN was never going to allow Palestine to become a legal nation in its own right. The situation which has eroded the existence of Palestine is within living memory. I was born just a year after the Nakba. If you say Israel has a right to protect itself, you must say Palestine has a right to exist without being eaten away from the inside. It should always have had the protection of the UN in law. I already explained why that never happened. Neither do I, if you read and digest my posts you would know that. You have decided to ignore the history of a hundred plus years of persecution of the Jews by the Arabs. Not looking at where that persecution is largely to blame for the state of affairs that have existed in recent times. It is true that the Palestinian cause has deteriorated since they lost the war to annihilate Israel, that deterioration has taken place largely because of the continued aggression by the Palestinian Arabs and their buddies in the terrorist groups. And now apparently because an extreme right-wing government in Israel is every bit as aggressive to the Palestinian Arabs as they have been to Israel. The Israelis have always fought fire with fire, the terrorist groups of Hamas and Hezbollah are both very aware of that fact. In short you do not look at both sides of the coin choosing to put all the blame on the Israelis. I have ignored nothing. And i have never put all the blame on the Israelis. I am sorry you cant read properly. It helps when discussing such complex issues.
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Post by see2 on Oct 23, 2023 15:19:21 GMT
Neither do I, if you read and digest my posts you would know that. You have decided to ignore the history of a hundred plus years of persecution of the Jews by the Arabs. Not looking at where that persecution is largely to blame for the state of affairs that have existed in recent times. It is true that the Palestinian cause has deteriorated since they lost the war to annihilate Israel, that deterioration has taken place largely because of the continued aggression by the Palestinian Arabs and their buddies in the terrorist groups. And now apparently because an extreme right-wing government in Israel is every bit as aggressive to the Palestinian Arabs as they have been to Israel. The Israelis have always fought fire with fire, the terrorist groups of Hamas and Hezbollah are both very aware of that fact. In short you do not look at both sides of the coin choosing to put all the blame on the Israelis. I have ignored nothing. And i have never put all the blame on the Israelis. I am sorry you cant read properly. It helps when discussing such complex issues. Then how is that you seem to be unaware of (i.e. never mention) the aggression and the violence by the Arabs against the Jews over the last 100+ years, you seem to leave that information down to me. Giving the impression that you only look at one side, that being the state the Arabs have helped to get themselves into. I haven't seen you putting any of the blame onto the Arabs for any of the problems they suffer in Palestine. Perhaps you need to be a little more objective in your research on the problem.
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Post by see2 on Oct 23, 2023 16:05:57 GMT
The Palestinian Arabs made it perfectly clear in 1947 that they would destroy an Israeli state if it came into being. That threat was taken up by 5 Muslim armies all intent on annihilating Israel. The conflict between the Palestinian Jews and the Palestinian Arabs was instigated by the Palestinian Arabs. The threat of war was there before the declaration of independence by the Jews, the Palestinian Jews knew that the only way to get their homeland back was to declare independence. They Knew there were five Muslim armies waiting for them. Their first job was to take out the enclaves of anti Israeli fighters before they took on the Muslim armies otherwise they would be fighting the Muslim armies in front and anti Israeli fighters from behind them. The Palestinian Arabs were advised by the Muslim armies to move out of the way of their invasion, promising them that they would be able to soon return after Israel had be annihilated. The land around what is now Israel is a "homeland" referring to an ancient book with no clear history. The traceable homeland of Ashkenasi jews is Eastern Europe. The homeland of Sephardic Jews is northern Africa and southern Europe. The homeland of all people is Africa. So where are you placing your marker and more importantly why? OTOH the homeland of Christianity is in what is now Israel too. I dont subscribe to the arbitrary divine granting of a piece of land to a faith. The whole idea was justified by the generations of bigotry against a people of a certain faith. It is a foxhole which is protected by the very Christian and Muslim persecutors which made a place of safety inevitable. You may as well call it Mea Culpa. But i cannot justify the erosion of the population which lived there under the Ottoman Empire and before that. The Israeli slow land grab is IMO cause for an international agreement UNIMPEDED by the USA. The Jewish religion was born in Canaan which included Palestine. The ancient Jewish religious buildings are in Palestine. The Jewish history is based in the same area. There are old Jewish songs about the return to Zion, mentioned multiple times in the Old Testament Zion was the area of future promise when the Jews returned. Jesus was a Jew born in Bethlehem in Palestine. I agree that the Israeli land grab should be ended, the Israeli mind set appears to be, "you will not allow us to live in peace, so we will just do it our way". Totally wrong yes. But are there any workable alternatives? Having said that, IMO, this latest (forced) venture by the Israelis is likely to reach the greatest threat to the existence of Israel, it could lead to serious war where the only hope of survival for Israel is the support from the US and Europe. I have pointed out to others over many years, that there is almost certainly nothing the Israelis can do to bring peace to Israel so they prefer to do it on their terms of a land grab rather than in a reduced and therefore more vulnerable piece of land. One thing that has me wondering is why there was not world wide condemnation of the invasion by Hamas.
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 23, 2023 18:22:07 GMT
I have ignored nothing. And i have never put all the blame on the Israelis. I am sorry you cant read properly. It helps when discussing such complex issues. Then how is that you seem to be unaware of (i.e. never mention) the aggression and the violence by the Arabs against the Jews over the last 100+ years, you seem to leave that information down to me. Giving the impression that you only look at one side, that being the state the Arabs have helped to get themselves into. I haven't seen you putting any of the blame onto the Arabs for any of the problems they suffer in Palestine. Perhaps you need to be a little more objective in your research on the problem. Because i refuse to play the blame game and take sides. I have been discussing this issue via social media for over 15 years. What you read and what you believe is your choice. I dont have to post content to please you. Your strawmanning doesnt help adult conversation. I dont know what media you pay attention to but there has been universal condemnation of Hamas, particularly among world political leaders. And FYI, i dont care what justification someone has for claiming someone else's land, including and foremost, religion. You dont see Christians stealing parts of the ME because someone wrote that Jesus walked for 40 days somewhere there. There is enough aggression of the subject without you starting more because i havent written something in support of your clear bias. I do have a sense of who the real victim has been in the last 50 years. But i am not prepared to weigh victimhood over the last 3000 years.
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Post by Vinny on Oct 23, 2023 18:39:31 GMT
Fixed.
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Post by see2 on Oct 24, 2023 11:37:54 GMT
Then how is that you seem to be unaware of (i.e. never mention) the aggression and the violence by the Arabs against the Jews over the last 100+ years, you seem to leave that information down to me. Giving the impression that you only look at one side, that being the state the Arabs have helped to get themselves into. I haven't seen you putting any of the blame onto the Arabs for any of the problems they suffer in Palestine. Perhaps you need to be a little more objective in your research on the problem. Because i refuse to play the blame game and take sides. I have been discussing this issue via social media for over 15 years. What you read and what you believe is your choice. I dont have to post content to please you. Your strawmanning doesnt help adult conversation. I dont know what media you pay attention to but there has been universal condemnation of Hamas, particularly among world political leaders. And FYI, i dont care what justification someone has for claiming someone else's land, including and foremost, religion. You dont see Christians stealing parts of the ME because someone wrote that Jesus walked for 40 days somewhere there. There is enough aggression of the subject without you starting more because i havent written something in support of your clear bias. I do have a sense of who the real victim has been in the last 50 years. But i am not prepared to weigh victimhood over the last 3000 years. Acknowledging faults on both sides is not playing the "blame game" or taking sides. False accusations like "Strawmanning" only allow you to continue to fool yourself, it is not debate. The media I watch is not influential upon me, I prefer actual research, not biased or public opinion. I have been debating the problem for over 20years. There has not been anything like the same level of condemnation of Hamas as there has been against Israel. It's good of you to at least acknowledge that you disagree with the Palestinian Muslim Arabs attempt to destroy Israel and to grab all of the Israeli land for themselves, and that it (there many attempts) was the wrong to do. I would just add that it heralded a bunch of unexpected consequences for the Arabs, i.e. it backfired. You asked 'Why the Jews chose Israel". The only one with a clear bias on this subject is yourself Exactly, over the last 50years, despite the repeated attacks by Hamas and Hezbollah? But I can understand that you condemn what the Right-Wing Israeli government that has inflicted no nonsense reprisals on the Arabs and have gone OTT at times. So in your mind all the aggression and violence that has led to this position doesn't count. If you do not understand that you have disclosed your absolute bias by that comment, then you have no place in this debate. Why not watch the video on the "Short trip through Jewish history" thread. It is a short trip. In The Mind Zone.
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 24, 2023 18:13:08 GMT
Sorry but you wont provoke me. There should be less rather than more provocation.
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Post by see2 on Oct 24, 2023 18:25:33 GMT
Sorry but you wont provoke me. There should be less rather than more provocation. I post only the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 22:11:07 GMT
Sorry but you wont provoke me. There should be less rather than more provocation. I post only the truth. I have not read most of this thread so you may or may not have posted the truth in it, I cannot say. But more generally speaking, you do not only post the truth. You post your opinion, which you mistake for the truth, and thereby assume that everyone with a differing opinion is not speaking the truth, or as you generally prefer to put it, are showing their bias. Certainly here and there you have on occasions spouted utter tosh which is anything but the truth. I suppose we can all be guilty of that occasionally. You however have always been too arrogant in the assumed undeniable truth of your own opinions to ever admit to any bias or possibility of ever being wrong.
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