|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 11, 2023 17:11:47 GMT
Seems both Pacifico and Orac seem curiously reluctant to provide any back up to their claim that gas generated electricity is currently cheaper than new offshore wind developments. I remain open to being shown any evidence that this is true. Hard not to conclude there isn't any. My curiousity piqued, I have tried to do a bit of research myself. Cant say this is an area of expertise, so open to being proven wrong, but this seems to be the reality. The current wholesale price of electricity seems to be around £95 per MWH for summer 24 and around £115 for winter 24. This, as I understand it is the price the grid would pay to anyone generating electricity - including gas. The recent CFD auction for offshore wind reduced the CfD floor bidding price from £48 per MWH to £44 per MWH. Bidders had previously bid at £48 but were not prepared to go as low as £44. CfD works, as I understand it, that (on say a CFD bid of £50per MWH) if on sale the market price is below £50, the Government makes up the difference and if the market price is above £50 the generator pays the amount over £50 to the government. If therefore the market price was at the summer 24 price of £95, the generator would get £50, the government £45. This would suggest that currently wind is currently roughly half the price of gas. All that may be complete bollocks. If so happy for someone to explain why. I await Pacifico to show his workings for his contention that gas is currently cheaper. www.catalyst-commercial.co.uk/wholesale-electricity-prices/www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66740920Thanks Dappy. That's pretty much what the articles I'm reading say. That wind is half the price of gas, but is still tied to gas prices. The poor old luddites are frantic. |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Oct 11, 2023 17:12:56 GMT
Where is the link to evidence this figure please
|
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on Oct 11, 2023 17:13:47 GMT
He keeps on making the same point but shows no evidence to prove his point. He might be right but the fact that he keeps on avoiding evidence is starting to make it look very likely that is just plain wrong. The fact that nobody will provide at a lower price, is evidence. Pretty good evidence, in fact It is evidence of corporate greed and no more. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 17:21:49 GMT
The fact that nobody will provide at a lower price, is evidence. Pretty good evidence, in fact It is evidence of corporate greed and no more. If energy companies cannot supply energy from windpower at £44 MWh, no amount of stamping your feet is going to achieve that. Ireland had to pay £75 MWh to achieve a successful wind power auction. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Oct 11, 2023 17:28:42 GMT
The fact that nobody will provide at a lower price, is evidence. Pretty good evidence, in fact It is evidence of corporate greed and no more. Corporate greed would sweep in to collect on the cost differential - the trouble is there is nothing to collect and so no rush of applicants at that price. |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Oct 11, 2023 17:32:17 GMT
Still waiting for you to evidence your gas powered electricity cost of £39 per GWH, Pacifico. Why the reluctance
|
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 11, 2023 17:43:11 GMT
www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-record-low-price-for-uk-offshore-wind-is-four-times-cheaper-than-gas/A UK government auction has secured a record 11 gigawatts (GW) of new renewable energy capacity that will generate electricity nine times more cheaply than current gas prices. The projects are all due to start operating within the next five years up to 2026/27 and have agreed to generate electricity for an average price of £48 per megawatt hour (MWh) in today’s money. This is nine times cheaper than the £446/MWh current cost of running gas-fired power stations. (Update 24/08/2022: The article was updated with the latest power prices, which have risen significantly.) Most of the new capacity – some 7GW – will be offshore wind. Notably, for the first time, these projects were cheaper than the 1.5GW of onshore wind or 2.2GW of solar. Once the pre-approved projects are built, Carbon Brief estimates they will generate 45 terawatt hours (TWh) of electricity per year, enough to meet around 14% of current UK demand. Analysts said they would also save consumers an estimated £1.5bn per year in the late 2020s and cut annual average bills by £58, with most of the projects effectively subsidy-free.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 17:46:28 GMT
Still waiting for you to evidence your gas powered electricity cost of £39 per GWH, Pacifico. Why the reluctance It's a traded commodity on the markets - the market sets the price not wishful thinking from Net Zero evangelists.. Natural Gas EU Dutch TTF (EUR/MWh) 46.55 |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 17:48:32 GMT
www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-record-low-price-for-uk-offshore-wind-is-four-times-cheaper-than-gas/A UK government auction has secured a record 11 gigawatts (GW) of new renewable energy capacity that will generate electricity nine times more cheaply than current gas prices. The projects are all due to start operating within the next five years up to 2026/27 and have agreed to generate electricity for an average price of £48 per megawatt hour (MWh) in today’s money. This is nine times cheaper than the £446/MWh current cost of running gas-fired power stations. (Update 24/08/2022: The article was updated with the latest power prices, which have risen significantly.) Most of the new capacity – some 7GW – will be offshore wind. Notably, for the first time, these projects were cheaper than the 1.5GW of onshore wind or 2.2GW of solar. Once the pre-approved projects are built, Carbon Brief estimates they will generate 45 terawatt hours (TWh) of electricity per year, enough to meet around 14% of current UK demand. Analysts said they would also save consumers an estimated £1.5bn per year in the late 2020s and cut annual average bills by £58, with most of the projects effectively subsidy-free. I hate to point it out but the largest bidder in that auction has already pulled out as they have found that £48 MWh is uneconomic.  Vattenfall pulls out of Norfolk Boreas wind farm due to soaring costs |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Oct 11, 2023 20:44:49 GMT
Still waiting for you to evidence your gas powered electricity cost of £39 per GWH, Pacifico. Why the reluctance It's a traded commodity on the markets - the market sets the price not wishful thinking from Net Zero evangelists.. Natural Gas EU Dutch TTF (EUR/MWh) 46.55Absolutely gas is a traded commodity but with respect you have completely misunderstood what you are looking at and therefore have failed in the basic requirement of comparison - making sure you are comparing like with like. What your figures if £40 per MWH for gas is is the raw material cost for the gas itself not the cost of electricity made from the gas. That’s why your link refers to a specific origin of the gas. If you just compare the raw material gas v wind the cost comparison would be gas £40 wind £0. That of course is entirely irrelevant to the question you asked - comparing the total cost of making a unit of electricity from gas and wind factoring in plant build costs, maintenance, staff etc etc etc. when you compare like with like the current gas /wind costs are roughly £100 / £50. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 21:07:24 GMT
It is the sale price for gas - that is why it is traded. ...and we come back to the basic issue - no wind power company will sell you energy at £50 MWh FFS - how many times does this have to be pointed out? |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 11, 2023 21:12:28 GMT
It is the sale price for gas - that is why it is traded. ...and we come back to the basic issue - no wind power company will sell you energy at £50 MWh FFS - how many times does this have to be pointed out? And what is the price of a MWh of energy produced by gas? |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 21:18:00 GMT
It is the sale price for gas - that is why it is traded. ...and we come back to the basic issue - no wind power company will sell you energy at £50 MWh FFS - how many times does this have to be pointed out? And what is the price of a MWh of energy produced by gas? £39 |
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Oct 11, 2023 21:20:17 GMT
The sales price for gas is irrelevant. You are trying to compare the cost of a unit of electricity made from gas to the cost of electricity made from wind.
Not for the first time you have misunderstood numbers and hence formed entirely the wrong conclusion.
On shore wind is even cheaper than off shore which is roughly half the price currently of gas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 21:33:59 GMT
The sales price for gas is irrelevant. You are trying to compare the cost of a unit of electricity made from gas to the cost of electricity made from wind.which is precisely what the discussion is about dappy... |
|
