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Post by Pacifico on Oct 11, 2023 21:45:24 GMT
Just out of interest - the price of 1 MWh of gas from US fracking is £8.80 - compared with £75 for offshore wind.
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Post by dappy on Oct 11, 2023 22:03:09 GMT
The sales price for gas is irrelevant. You are trying to compare the cost of a unit of electricity made from gas to the cost of electricity made from wind.which is precisely what the discussion is about dappy...  I am trying to point out what you were trying to compare . Which is the full cost of manufacture of a unit of electricity by two different methods. For reasons unclear, you are instead comparing the full cost of generating a unit of electricity from wind against just the raw material cost of generating a unit of electricity from gas ignoring all the other elements. Weird and either illiterate or deliberately misleading. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 12, 2023 6:27:06 GMT
I'm not misleading anyone dappy - I am giving you the market price that the different types of energy sell for. The market price includes the full costs of manufacture.
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Post by Orac on Oct 12, 2023 6:33:48 GMT
The sales price for gas is irrelevant. You are trying to compare the cost of a unit of electricity made from gas to the cost of electricity made from wind. Not for the first time you have misunderstood numbers and hence formed entirely the wrong conclusion. On shore wind is even cheaper than off shore which is roughly half the price currently of gas. I'm not an expert on wind, but you might find that this estimate is not realistic - which is why nobody can be found to sell at this price. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 12, 2023 6:44:05 GMT
The sales price for gas is irrelevant. You are trying to compare the cost of a unit of electricity made from gas to the cost of electricity made from wind. Not for the first time you have misunderstood numbers and hence formed entirely the wrong conclusion. On shore wind is even cheaper than off shore which is roughly half the price currently of gas. I'm not an expert on wind, but you might find that this estimate is not realistic - which is why nobody can be found to sell at this price. Would be interesting to find out if this is true, why its true. What I'm getting here. Wind power costs half as much to produce but costs 1.5 times as much to buy. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 12, 2023 6:45:11 GMT
I'm not an expert on wind, but you might find that this estimate is not realistic - which is why nobody can be found to sell at this price. What I'm getting here. Wind power costs half as much to produce but costs 1.5 times as much to buy. something ain't adding up |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 12, 2023 6:49:55 GMT
I'm not an expert on wind, but you might find that this estimate is not realistic - which is why nobody can be found to sell at this price. Would be interesting to find out if this is true, why its true. What I'm getting here. Wind power costs half as much to produce but costs 1.5 times as much to buy. Does it though? - I know that is the claim but if you cannot find anyone willing to sell it for that price then perhaps the claims are bunk? What evidence is this claim based on? |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 12, 2023 7:14:39 GMT
Would be interesting to find out if this is true, why its true. What I'm getting here. Wind power costs half as much to produce but costs 1.5 times as much to buy. Does it though? - I know that is the claim but if you cannot find anyone willing to sell it for that price then perhaps the claims are bunk? What evidence is this claim based on? . Well its widely claimed so I assume someone has calculated it. Its possible they have under estimated to cost of return on investment? The early windfarms were considered high risk investments and would have much higher return rates? |
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Post by dappy on Oct 12, 2023 9:04:44 GMT
I'm not misleading anyone dappy - I am giving you the market price that the different types of energy sell for. The market price includes the full costs of manufacture. Well with respect Pacifico, you are either deliberately misleading or frankly very very thick. I dont think its the latter. This has been explained to you repeatedly. Its not a hard concept to grasp. You want to compare the cost of producing a unit of electricity from two different fuel sources, wind and gas. For each fuel source there are multiple elements of cost including raw material fuel source, the cost of building the plant to convert the raw material to electricity, the cost of maintaining that plant, labour costs etc etc etc The raw material cost of gas generated electricity is around £39 per GWH. The raw material cost of wind generated electricity is £0. The costs of converting gas to electricity takes the overall cost of gas generated electricity to around £100 per GWH. The cost of converting wind to electricity takes the overall cost of wind generated electricity to around £50 per GWH Ergo wind generated electricity is roughly half the cost of gas generated electricity. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2023 9:14:11 GMT
Just out of interest - the price of 1 MWh of gas from US fracking is £8.80 - compared with £75 for offshore wind. And the Yanks kindly ship it to us where we offload it at the Isle of Grain, and we are grateful, because our crazy politicians won't get our own gas out of the ground and sea. |
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Post by dappy on Oct 12, 2023 9:50:11 GMT
I'm not an expert on wind, but you might find that this estimate is not realistic - which is why nobody can be found to sell at this price. Would be interesting to find out if this is true, why its true. What I'm getting here. Wind power costs half as much to produce but costs 1.5 times as much to buy. Zany, I am struggling a bit to understand your point. We have seen that wind power is roughly half the current cost of gas generated electricity. That much is true. Indeed wind was selling for as little as £37 per MGW as recently as the summer 2022 CFD round. www.4coffshore.com/News/nearly-7-gw-of-offshore-wind-awarded-in-uks-latest-cfd-auction.-cost-falls-by-702525.-nid25892.html. Like so many things costs have increased recently so no-one was prepared to sell at £44 in the most recent round - it is reckoned that a price of around £50 is required. I am struggling to understand why you think wind generated electricity costs 1.5 times as much to buy. That simply isn't true. I wonder if you have misunderstood how the contract for differences scheme works. P:ower generators sell the power they have generated to the grid. At present all generators sell the power they have generated to the grid at the same price regardless of fuel used. Under the CFD scheme generators sell forward their power ensuring they get a fixed price. The most recent CFD round for wind power failed to get any bids at £44 as a price of around £50 was required to secure bids. CFD works by fixing a price the developer will get for the power. So say they have a contract for difference at £50. If the market price from the grid is £30, the government pays the developer a further £20 to bring achieved price up to £50. If the market price is £80, the developer pays £30 of that to the government to take achieved price down to £50. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 12, 2023 9:58:31 GMT
Does it though? - I know that is the claim but if you cannot find anyone willing to sell it for that price then perhaps the claims are bunk? What evidence is this claim based on? . Well its widely claimed so I assume someone has calculated it. Its possible they have under estimated to cost of return on investment? The early windfarms were considered high risk investments and would have much higher return rates? Because of the fickle nature of the endeavor, it's probably quite difficult to calculate in 'cold blood'. Insurance companies are quite likely to take a rather defensive attitude over being asked to bet that the wind will blow properly/normally/moderately. If you ran a real wind farm for ten years you could probably work out what the price needs to be - but with largish error bars |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 12, 2023 10:57:27 GMT
Does it though? - I know that is the claim but if you cannot find anyone willing to sell it for that price then perhaps the claims are bunk? What evidence is this claim based on?
Its possible they have under estimated to cost of return on investment? The early windfarms were considered high risk investments and would have much higher return rates? You know what Oscar Wilde said about assuming anything... |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 12, 2023 11:01:47 GMT
I'm not misleading anyone dappy - I am giving you the market price that the different types of energy sell for. The market price includes the full costs of manufacture. Well with respect Pacifico, you are either deliberately misleading or frankly very very thick. I dont think its the latter. This has been explained to you repeatedly. Its not a hard concept to grasp. You want to compare the cost of producing a unit of electricity from two different fuel sources, wind and gas. For each fuel source there are multiple elements of cost including raw material fuel source, the cost of building the plant to convert the raw material to electricity, the cost of maintaining that plant, labour costs etc etc etc The raw material cost of gas generated electricity is around £39 per GWH. The raw material cost of wind generated electricity is £0. The costs of converting gas to electricity takes the overall cost of gas generated electricity to around £100 per GWH. The cost of converting wind to electricity takes the overall cost of wind generated electricity to around £50 per GWH Ergo wind generated electricity is roughly half the cost of gas generated electricity. 1 MWh of Gas is the same amount of energy as 1 MWh of wind power. 1 MWh represents exactly 1 MW of electricity being consumed for one hour. As I have shown - 1 MWh of gas is cheaper than 1 MWh of wind power. You should try using real life figures rather than some that are made up or 'assumed'.. |
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Post by dappy on Oct 12, 2023 11:11:31 GMT
You are not that stupid Pacifico. Stop pretending you are. You got your figures wrong. Time to stop digging.
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