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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 27, 2023 11:32:37 GMT
The immediate labour shortage post-WWII was solved by the Labour government recruiting around a quarter million East Europeans, former soldiers and DPs. There was never any intention of bringing in large numbers of colonial workers. The only reason it happened was because they were British subjects and successive governments felt unable to stop them arriving.
Your definition of 'contribution' is an unusually broad one which isn't appropriate in this case. We need evidence of something tangible being contributed i.e. added to society. A West Indian nurse or bus driver does not meet that test.
I'm thinking of something more in line with the contributions made by Central European refugees in the 1930s, many of whom went on to become internationally significant figures in the arts, sciences, academia, publishing, the law and the media. People like Ludwig Wittgenstein, Isaiah Berlin and Peter Brook. These refugees and their descendants have won more Nobel prizes than the millions of the Windrush generation put together and the country has been enriched by their presence.
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 11:44:36 GMT
The immediate labour shortage post-WWII was solved by the Labour government recruiting around a quarter million East Europeans, former soldiers and DPs. There was never any intention of bringing in large numbers of colonial workers. The only reason it happened was because they were British subjects and successive governments felt unable to stop them arriving. Your definition of 'contribution' is an unusually broad one which isn't appropriate in this case. We need evidence of something tangible being contributed i.e. added to society. A West Indian nurse or bus driver does not meet that test. I'm thinking of something more in line with the contributions made by Central European refugees in the 1930s, many of whom went on to become internationally significant figures in the arts, sciences, academia, publishing, the law and the media. People like Ludwig Wittgenstein, Isaiah Berlin and Peter Brook. These refugees and their descendants have won more Nobel prizes than the millions of the Windrush generation put together and the country has been enriched by their presence. Sorry I simply can't agree with your notion that a nuse or bus driver doesn't make a tangible contribution to society. Quite frankly it has a faint but noticeable whiff of class snobbery about it IMHO. Remember back in the pandemic and the classification of key workers, people who are society simply couldn't function without, nurses and bus drivers would be on that list. Have you won any Nobel prizes by the way? If not is it right to say that you have made no tangible contribution to society? My grandmother worked in terrible conditions in a munitions factory during WW2 and slept in a tube station during the blitz. Did she win any Nobel prizes? No. Did she make a valid contribution, abso-bloody-lutely she did. |
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Post by ratcliff on Oct 27, 2023 12:10:42 GMT
Are you saying that white lives don't matter? The whites have contributed more to history than any blacks. It was the blacks who first started the slave trade and it was the whites who ended it. Of course I'm not saying white lives don't matter. I'm saying I see no harm in teaching kids the contribution made to history by white and black people. I've yet to hear anyone spell out what possibly harm can come from teaching kids the latter. History involves contribution from people of all races , skin colours and abilities ,history lessons shouldn't be taught as positive discrimination based on skin colour |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 12:15:29 GMT
Of course I'm not saying white lives don't matter. I'm saying I see no harm in teaching kids the contribution made to history by white and black people. I've yet to hear anyone spell out what possibly harm can come from teaching kids the latter. History involves contribution from people of all races , skin colours and abilities ,history lessons shouldn't be taught as positive discrimination based on skin colour But if as has been argued that the contribution of black people has been airbrushed out of the teaching of history should this not be addressed? |
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Post by Fairsociety on Oct 27, 2023 12:21:26 GMT
Of course I'm not saying white lives don't matter. I'm saying I see no harm in teaching kids the contribution made to history by white and black people. I've yet to hear anyone spell out what possibly harm can come from teaching kids the latter. History involves contribution from people of all races , skin colours and abilities ,history lessons shouldn't be taught as positive discrimination based on skin colour I agree, schools should teach about every culture in the world, and not focus on one particular group of people, namely Black people.
They always seem to get preferential treatment, many many cultures in the world have had their own prejudice and wrong doings, some much worse than Black people, yet Black people only care about Black people, to them they are the most hard done to in the World Ever, they are the only people who suffer racism and prejudice, to be honest most none Black people are getting fed up with their constant whinging whining hard luck stories, like Lenny Henry, Lammy, Abbott.
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Post by ratcliff on Oct 27, 2023 12:22:59 GMT
Even when intelligent black folk are telling you they don't want it and find the whole thing offensive, you will only listen to virtue signals. No, I will listen to facts and evidence, as I was taught from day one of my history degree. Do any post 92 universities offer an undergraduate Black history degree ? |
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Post by ratcliff on Oct 27, 2023 12:27:36 GMT
History involves contribution from people of all races , skin colours and abilities ,history lessons shouldn't be taught as positive discrimination based on skin colour But if as has been argued that the contribution of black people has been airbrushed out of the teaching of history should this not be addressed? You want to inflict positive discrimination on schoolkids ? I remember O level history lessons at school, we covered Rosa Parkes , Martin Luther King and various other historical figures from a range nationalities and skin colours |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 12:34:00 GMT
History involves contribution from people of all races , skin colours and abilities ,history lessons shouldn't be taught as positive discrimination based on skin colour I agree, schools should teach about every culture in the world, and not focus on one particular group of people, namely Black people.
They always seem to get preferential treatment, many many cultures in the world have had their own prejudice and wrong doings, some much worse than Black people, yet Black people only care about Black people, to them they are the most hard done to in the World Ever, they are the only people who suffer racism and prejudice, to be honest most none Black people are getting fed up with their constant whinging whining hard luck stories, like Lenny Henry, Lammy, Abbott.
"Black people only care about Black people" Really? All of them? You can prove that? |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 12:36:53 GMT
But if as has been argued that the contribution of black people has been airbrushed out of the teaching of history should this not be addressed? You want to inflict positive discrimination on schoolkids ? I remember O level history lessons at school, we covered Rosa Parkes , Martin Luther King and various other historical figures from a range nationalities and skin colours No, I don't want to inflict positive discrimination on school kids. I don't think that teaching school kids about the contribution to history of black people as well as white people is positive discrimination. Off the top of my head I can't think of one black historical figure we learned about when I was at school, the curriculum was 100% white, was I a victim of positive discrimination? |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 12:40:03 GMT
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Post by Fairsociety on Oct 27, 2023 12:42:40 GMT
I agree, schools should teach about every culture in the world, and not focus on one particular group of people, namely Black people.
They always seem to get preferential treatment, many many cultures in the world have had their own prejudice and wrong doings, some much worse than Black people, yet Black people only care about Black people, to them they are the most hard done to in the World Ever, they are the only people who suffer racism and prejudice, to be honest most none Black people are getting fed up with their constant whinging whining hard luck stories, like Lenny Henry, Lammy, Abbott.
"Black people only care about Black people" Really? All of them? You can prove that? Oh ok, if it needs spelling out ..... NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE like Kemi Badenoch the Black Tory Secretary of State for Trade, she made it through hard work, no whinging and whining and playing the race card, a thouroughly decent well educated, well presented clever lady. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 27, 2023 12:45:04 GMT
“4) I appreciate not everyone is a sports fan but I don't think you can credibly argue that nobody cares about the world cup, Olympics etc.” A classic strawman. Of course people care about such events but there is little evidence that blacks have contributed very much to British success in major events like the World Cup or the Olympics. Here for example is a list of the 62 British medal-winners at the Tokyo Olympics. How many were won by blacks?
How much is "much" by your definition? Iconic Olympic moments that spring to mind for me include Linford Christie winning the 92 100m, Dame Kelly Holmes winning a brace of golds, Mo Farrah and Jess Ennis in 2012, Daley Thompson. At the last world cup over half of England's goals were scored by black players. By much I mean making a decisive contribution i.e. a contribution that makes the difference between success and failure. We're all well aware of the headline acts that you list and which the media have become fixated on, but in terms of the overall medal table the end-result would have been barely different if they had not participated.
As for England in last World Cup, it's true that 7 of England's 13 goals were scored by black players but it would be surprising if it wasn't. Black players are usually played in forward positions where goal opportunities are to be found. However if you consider the overall goal-scoring record of black players in the current England squad the highest scorer is Raheem Sterling with 20, from 82 caps. Harry Kane has five more caps but has scored more than three times as many (61).
Taking the longer-term view no black player makes the top twenty of England scorers; in fact Sterling ties with Jermaine Defoe for 22nd slot.
Black players often flatter to deceive.
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 27, 2023 12:47:12 GMT
The immediate labour shortage post-WWII was solved by the Labour government recruiting around a quarter million East Europeans, former soldiers and DPs. There was never any intention of bringing in large numbers of colonial workers. The only reason it happened was because they were British subjects and successive governments felt unable to stop them arriving. Your definition of 'contribution' is an unusually broad one which isn't appropriate in this case. We need evidence of something tangible being contributed i.e. added to society. A West Indian nurse or bus driver does not meet that test. I'm thinking of something more in line with the contributions made by Central European refugees in the 1930s, many of whom went on to become internationally significant figures in the arts, sciences, academia, publishing, the law and the media. People like Ludwig Wittgenstein, Isaiah Berlin and Peter Brook. These refugees and their descendants have won more Nobel prizes than the millions of the Windrush generation put together and the country has been enriched by their presence. Sorry I simply can't agree with your notion that a nuse or bus driver doesn't make a tangible contribution to society. Quite frankly it has a faint but noticeable whiff of class snobbery about it IMHO. Remember back in the pandemic and the classification of key workers, people who are society simply couldn't function without, nurses and bus drivers would be on that list. Have you won any Nobel prizes by the way? If not is it right to say that you have made no tangible contribution to society? My grandmother worked in terrible conditions in a munitions factory during WW2 and slept in a tube station during the blitz. Did she win any Nobel prizes? No. Did she make a valid contribution, abso-bloody-lutely she did. The difference being that nobody is demanding a special month be set aside in the national curriculum to celebrate your grandmother's contribution. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2023 12:48:13 GMT
It looks like a few courses to promote racial grievances and Communist social indoctrination. Can't they instead do something productive for society instead of validating Fairsociety's argument? |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 12:50:09 GMT
"Black people only care about Black people" Really? All of them? You can prove that? Oh ok, if it needs spelling out ..... NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE like Kemi Badenoch the Black Tory Secretary of State for Trade, she made it through hard work, no whinging and whining and playing the race card, a thouroughly decent well educated, well presented clever lady. I believe that's known as survivor bias. If one looks at objective facts and data, it does heavily indicate ingrained prejudice against black people and other ethnic minorities in the UK. For example, black people in the UK are twice as likely to be unemployed: www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/unemployment-and-economic-inactivity/unemployment/latestThis goes a long way to explaining it: "All of the fictitious candidates were British citizens, or had moved to the UK by the age of six, and had identical CVs, covering letters and years of experience. The only thing that they changed was the applicant's name, which they based on their ethnic background. While 24% of white British applicants received a call back from UK employers, only 15% of ethnic minority applicants did. Compared to White British applicants, people of: Pakistani heritage had to make 70% more applications Nigerian and South Asian heritage 80% more applications Middle Eastern and north African heritage 90% more applications" www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417 |
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