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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 3, 2022 12:39:08 GMT
A point of clarification may be necessary as a result of Steve trying to muddy the waters by introducing the topic of ‘visitors’ into the census discussion. The census actually counted both what it called ‘usual residents’ and ‘visitors’. The definitions they used are as follows: Usual resident of the UKA usual resident of the UK is anyone who, on 21 March 2021, is in the UK and has stayed, or intends to stay, in the UK for 12 months or more or has a permanent UK address and is outside the UK and intends to be outside the UK for less than 12 months. The only exception is members of the armed forces on deployment on operations, who remain usual residents of the UK regardless of length of deployment. This is the same definition as used in the mid-year population estimates and allows for comparability with population estimates from other countries. Census short-term UK residentsA census short-term UK resident is anyone born outside the UK who has stayed, or intends to stay, in the UK for a period of three months or more but less than 12 months. VisitorsA domestic visitor is a person who is usually resident in the UK or a census short-term UK resident staying overnight at an address on 21 March 2021 at which they are not usually resident. They should be counted as visitors where they are staying overnight and separately counted at their usual address as a usual UK resident as well. An international visitor is a person who intends to stay in the UK for less than three months. They are usually resident outside the UK so will only be counted as visitors. Source hereIn the recent (this week) ONS release which announced the change in the foreign-born population (link in OP) the ONS makes it very clear that the statistics – including the 10 million figure – represent the number of Usual residents of the UK only. Short-term residents and visitors are not included in these figures. Contrary to Steve's contrarian argument, the same applies to the 1.4 million additional foreign-born who have arrived since the census. Since they all intend or intended to stay at least 12 months in the UK (the international definition of a migrant) they would have all been counted as Usual Residents for the purpose of the census, had they been physically present on that date. There is no rationale for discounting their presence or pretending they are only visitors as Steve is trying to do. If another census were held tomorrow they would all be counted as Usually Resident which of course they are by the normative definition of the term. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 3, 2022 12:42:15 GMT
Nope, but you've now lost my support in this thread. And I had very much supported your OP but I can't back false or misleading assertions. A cross I shall have to bear with fortitude. |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 3, 2022 12:45:39 GMT
Nope, but you've now lost my support in this thread. And I had very much supported your OP but I can't back false or misleading assertions. I bet Dan is gutted.. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 3, 2022 12:50:03 GMT
A point of clarification may be necessary as a result of Steve trying to muddy the waters by introducing the topic of ‘visitors’ into the census discussion. The census actually counted both what it called ‘usual residents’ and ‘visitors’. The definitions they used are as follows: Usual resident of the UKA usual resident of the UK is anyone who, on 21 March 2021, is in the UK and has stayed, or intends to stay, in the UK for 12 months or more or has a permanent UK address and is outside the UK and intends to be outside the UK for less than 12 months. The only exception is members of the armed forces on deployment on operations, who remain usual residents of the UK regardless of length of deployment. This is the same definition as used in the mid-year population estimates and allows for comparability with population estimates from other countries. Census short-term UK residentsA census short-term UK resident is anyone born outside the UK who has stayed, or intends to stay, in the UK for a period of three months or more but less than 12 months. VisitorsA domestic visitor is a person who is usually resident in the UK or a census short-term UK resident staying overnight at an address on 21 March 2021 at which they are not usually resident. They should be counted as visitors where they are staying overnight and separately counted at their usual address as a usual UK resident as well. An international visitor is a person who intends to stay in the UK for less than three months. They are usually resident outside the UK so will only be counted as visitors. Source hereIn the recent (this week) ONS release which announced the change in the foreign-born population (link in OP) the ONS makes it very clear that the statistics – including the 10 million figure – represent the number of Usual residents of the UK only. Short-term residents and visitors are not included in these figures. Contrary to Steve's contrarian argument, the same applies to the 1.4 million additional foreign-born who have arrived since the census. Since they all intend or intended to stay at least 12 months in the UK (the international definition of a migrant) they would have all been counted as Usual Residents for the purpose of the census, had they been physically present on that date. There is no rationale for discounting their presence or pretending they are only visitors as Steve is trying to do. If another census were held tomorrow they would all be counted as Usually Resident which of course they are by the normative definition of the term. I suggest you read your own OP again because the link you use clearly says: 'Our release of unrounded population data from the census shows that the usual resident population in England and Wales grew by more than 3.5 million (6.3%) in the period between censuses, from 56,075,912 in 2011 to 59,597,542 in 2021.'So on your definitions above those visitors were included in your 3.5 million and you can't add them again |
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 3, 2022 12:51:47 GMT
Which visitors?!?
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Post by dappy on Nov 3, 2022 12:57:11 GMT
Dan, while you are right that some of those arriving here on student visas (was it 300k?) in the last 18 months will still be here, you seem to be making the assumption that a significant proportion of those who arrived here on student visas just prior to the census have not now left again. That feels a weird and misleading (deliberately or otherwise) assumption. Much the same as for work and family for that matter.
You never did explain why it mattered whether someone living in say Bristol was born in Burton or Bussels. What is your point exactly?
Hope life is good for you. How is France?
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 3, 2022 13:34:20 GMT
No, I acknowledged earlier that some of the foreigners counted as 'usually resident' in the census will have left after the census, but we don't know how many. We do know for sure that 1.4+ million have arrived since then which is why I suggested that the count of usually resident foreigners is now closer to 11 million than the 10 million counted by the census. This allows for 4-500,000 departures between May 21 and June 22.
Students btw are especially problematic since they all now have the opportunity to stay on and seek work after graduation ('the graduate visa') and can stay on for two more years even if they don't find a job. If they do find employment they can apply to transfer to the work visa channel and, after a period of time, then apply for ILR. This is why students should now be considered to be on the settlement track.
Whether of any of this matters is of course a matter for you and your particular world-view, including what sort of country you want to live in and to bequeath to your descendants.
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Post by dappy on Nov 3, 2022 13:52:49 GMT
Oh I know what you are doing Dan. As ever overstating your case by misrepresenting statistics.
I asked you a direct question what the relevanc of place of birth was to you. Could you answer please. Why does it matter whether say a 35 year old living in Bristol was originally born in Burton or Brussels.
While you are busy impying (but not quite saying) that people born in one country and living in enough cause untold damage to the social fabric of the country they are now living in,you seem curiously reticent to say how life is treating you living in france. Is France coping OK with having you there?
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 3, 2022 14:05:43 GMT
France is just fine, thank you for asking. As for 'Why does it matter whether say a 35 year old living in Bristol was originally born in Burton or Brussels.' obviously if we confine the discussion to such micro-matters then it doesn't matter at all, especially since the numbers of people from Brussels living in the UK are microscopically small. I know you're a fan of having 'grown-up' discussions so I suggest you turn the telescope round and consider matters in the aggregate. I wonder, for example, what it must be like for long-term 'native' residents of, say, Leicester now that almost half the population of that city are foreigners. Is that something you look forward for your own area, which I understand to be somewhere in the hideously-foreigner free West Country?  |
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Post by dappy on Nov 3, 2022 15:09:04 GMT
I am glad you are happy living in a foreign country Dan. It sounds a good life.
It seems you, as a foreign born person, are happy you do no harm to France but a French person living here causes untold damage to the UK. Some may describe you as a hypocrite.
Ohers of course are well aware that as usual for you, this is not about where you were born but your obsession with the colour of peoples skin.
I did enjoy your "it may be fine where you are but its terrible over there and they are heading your way" paragraph -the stock phrase of the racists for generations. Sweet to see it rolled out again - almost like an old friend.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 3, 2022 15:26:58 GMT
Oh dear, dappy, and you were doing so well with your newly-found interest in 'grown up' discussions but now revert to type and girlie-type discourse, focusing on juvenile jibes, silly non-sequiturs and empty sloganeering rather than attempting to deal with the bigger picture.
I shan't be responding further while you're still in this frame of mind.
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Post by dappy on Nov 3, 2022 15:36:23 GMT
Bless.
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Post by dodgydave on Nov 3, 2022 23:57:52 GMT
Makes you wonder what the population was before COVID and Brexit...
I was laughing at the BBC reporting this earlier. They kept emphasizing that most people were born in India, to try and deflect from the fact that we have been flooded with 6m+ EU nationals under Freedom of Movement. Zero attempt at context, like the India figure covers 70+ years of immigration, and the EU figures only a few decades lol.
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 4, 2022 0:29:23 GMT
Makecomeswonder what the population was before COVID and Brexiimmigration foreignhing at the BBC reporting this earlier. They kept emphasizing that most people were born in India, to try and deflect from the fact that we have been flooded with 6m+ EU nationals under Freedom of Movement. Zero attempt at context, like the India figure covers 70+ years of immigration, and the EU figures only a few decades lol. Im sure Dan who is a very smart cookey when it coomes down to immagration matters.Will answer your point Dan who is very Anti immigration was very pro EU even with its FOM |
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Post by jaydee on Nov 4, 2022 9:29:40 GMT
France's is the same at 14%. Germany is at 13%. I'm not quite sure of your point. Is it something specific to the UK? They are quite staggering figures. And in many ways appalling. You can't have a stable society with that level of introducing those with little stake in the country into an already overcrowded one. You don't get great stability having so much cultural strain nor do you get it by undermining the labour market. We shouldn't blame those that have come but we can blame those that allowed it and even promoted it for short term political gain Let me see now. It states one in seven in the UK are born elsewhere. Father of the England captain football team Harry Kane, Father of King Charles, Father of Dominic Raab, Father of Enoch Braverman, Parents of Priti Patel, Wife of Nigel Farage and his Great great grand parents. Boris Johnston, born in America of Turkish descent. Joanne Lumley born in Srinagar, Freddie Mercury born Tanzania, father of the England Captain cricket team. Just a few. Would you like hundreds of others. Or did you not mean those ones. You meant the ones over there. Who you have not met. Now in terms of illegal Immigrants. Would you care to tell me who is to blame for those who should not be here. Why are they still here. Clue. Cheap labour, and who has been in power for the last 12 years. Inventing imaginary enemies to hate. You can phone a friend, go 50/50 or ask the forum. |
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