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Post by Fairsociety on Jul 21, 2023 12:37:12 GMT
The last 13 years the Tories have been unpopular, the one thing that has been in their favour was that the other parties were even worse. Especially when it came to the EU. But now we're out, and the Tories have nothing to fall back on. A new generation of voters who can't remember how shit things were when Blair & Brown were in, and well. No government stays in power forever. Labour had 13 years. The Tories will be lucky if they get past 14 years. The longer a party remains in office, the harder it is to stay in it. Not sure if the voters get fed up with the government or the government get fed of being the government, or a mixture of both.
But we all know the script by now, Labour will get in, and for the first 5 years blame everything that is happening on the Tories, if they win again, that will take them to 10 years in office, by which time no one believes Labour that all the problems are still down down to the Tories, so they'll get kicked out and back to the Tories who will be refreshed after 10 years of being in opposition.
It's quite boring really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 12:38:26 GMT
I doubt Labour will win outright as too much is happening over culture the latest being banks acting politically to disown customer so let's be clear there is a culture war going on that Labour will not speak too yet the electorate will. The only answer to the immigrant issue is to build camps and have RN boats taking economic migrants back to Africa, Albania and some places in the ME,Labour will never do that. Labour are no different with Ukraine. Labour will try and tax drivers more ULEZ is just the start. Of course Labour will send economic migrants home, you appear to be confusing what is going on now to what happened in 2010. Asylum seekers crossing the channel became a problem since the Tories came to power and closed all the 'legal' routes, save a few. We have the agreement with the French to open asylum processing centres in France but have refused to do so. ULEZ is a Tory policy, although you would not think so unless Boris Johnson was taking his orders from Labour. The government has threatened Kahn with withholding funding if he does not role it out faster. |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 21, 2023 12:41:36 GMT
Of course Labour will send economic migrants home, you appear to be confusing what is going on now to what happened in 2010. Asylum seekers crossing the channel became a problem since the Tories came to power and closed all the 'legal' routes, save a few. We have the agreement with the French to open asylum processing centres in France but have refused to do so. ULEZ is a Tory policy, although you would not think so unless Boris Johnson was taking his orders from Labour. The government has threatened Kahn with withholding funding if he does not role it out faster. Pointless dealing with France as they arguably have a bigger problem, it can only be dealt with here. First wave of ULEZ seems reasonable the outer zones will cost them votes as it is more difficult to get around with no tubes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 13:26:44 GMT
How shit things were when Blair and Brown were in ?
You mean when people could get a GP appointment in 2 or 3 days instead of 2 or 3 weeks
When ambulances actually turned up within the response times
when waiting lists were falling, and not rising
when the NHS was properly functioning and properly staffed
You mean when the UK had REAL sustainable growth, low unemployment, low interest rates and when living standards rose, instead of falling as they are now.
The period 1997 - 2007, ten whole years was the last time that there was a feeling of optimism in this country, reflected in our culture, Britpop, Cool Britania.
The last thirteen years have been dismal, a trudge, consistent low growth, crisis after crisis, people struggling and public services deteriorating.
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Post by bancroft on Jul 21, 2023 14:06:10 GMT
Before Iraq and Afghanistan drained billions out of the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 14:07:32 GMT
Before Iraq and Afghanistan drained billions out of the UK. Like before the Tories did? |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 21, 2023 14:07:39 GMT
How shit things were when Blair and Brown were in ? They sold our gold at knock down prices and bought Euros.
Robbed pensioners with a multi billion tax raid.
Unnecessary devolution which broke one nation into four and created extreme divisions.
Unnecessary (and counter productive) bombing of Serbia after Rambouilliet agreement was sabotaged. Look into it. There was a peaceful way of getting armed peacekeepers into Kosovo, without the bombing campaign. A lot of civilian deaths could have been avoided, but weren't. Cost of living crisis began. Abolition of the Tax Exempt Special Savings Account and the Personal Equity Plan and the replacement with the far less attractive ISA. Only decent savings options left were investing in houses. Result of that? Absurdly high house price inflation. Result of absurdly high house prices? Less money in people's pockets. First Trussell Trust food banks opened in 2000. Illegal invasion of Iraq 2003, how many dead? Yeah, think about it, all is not forgiven. Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and the curtailment of the right to protest around Westminster and if those rights hadn't been restored, remoaners would not be able to protest there without getting arrested. Multiple EU treaties signed without referendums.
Absurdist laws.
Unnecessary and hugely expensive ID cards.
Hugely inflated public sector, funded by borrowing.
High rates of industrial decline.
We exported less, and less, and less under Labour.
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Post by bancroft on Jul 21, 2023 14:12:38 GMT
Before Iraq and Afghanistan drained billions out of the UK. Like before the Tories did? And PFI that moved hospitals out of local locations to new out of town sets up with lack of decent car parking or needing two busses. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 14:34:34 GMT
A Labour Government at the next election will be a Blair Government with Starmer as just a figure head. Blair and Mandelson are already peeping out from the shadows aiming to have another bite of the limelight cherry. Starmer is not man enough to stand on his own merit, dark forces are once again plotting. As if Westminster had not already sunk low enough. It has become a statesman/woman free zone where the main criteria for election is based purely on PR capability and more recently a woke agenda.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 15:08:54 GMT
How shit things were when Blair and Brown were in ? They sold our gold at knock down prices and bought Euros. A mistake in hindsight I agree, equivelant in losses ( around £3.5 billion ) to the other big fiscal mistake of Black Wednesday, insigated by Norman Lamont.
Robbed pensioners with a multi billion tax raid.
You mean from Pension Funds, not from pensioners, the majority of pensioners became substantialy better off, mostly due to pension tax credits, winter fuel allowances, free TV licences and free bus travel.
Unnecessary devolution which broke one nation into four and created extreme divisions.
Devolution that the people of Scotland and Wales wanted, and voted in favour of - NOTHING has created more division within the United Kingdom more than Brexit and Camerons referendum.
Unnecessary (and counter productive) bombing of Serbia after Rambouilliet agreement was sabotaged. Look into it. There was a peaceful way of getting armed peacekeepers into Kosovo, without the bombing campaign. A lot of civilian deaths could have been avoided, but weren't.
The UK, together with NATO and with support from the UN, went to the aid of minorities, our actions saved lives and helped to stop ethnic cleansing. Cost of living crisis began. There was no cost of living crisis, the times were good until the World Banking Crisis
Abolition of the Tax Exempt Special Savings Account and the Personal Equity Plan and the replacement with the far less attractive ISA. Nice if you are well off with lots of disposable income to invest, but better public services and an NHS which actually works and functions properly for ALL THE PEOPLE has to be funded.
Only decent savings options left were investing in houses. Result of that? Absurdly high house price inflation. Result of absurdly high house prices? Less money in people's pockets. First Trussell Trust food banks opened in 2000. Its not the fact that food charities exist, or existed, they have always existed, its the fact that Food Bank numbers exploded under this government.Illegal invasion of Iraq 2003, how many dead? Yeah, think about it, all is not forgiven. My view is that Sadam Hussain was a dictator who murdered many thousands of people, he was a butcher, he was responsible for a war with Iran, the invasion of Kuwait and attacks on several other neighbouring countries. He used WMD on his own people, and I do not believe there is anything to apologise for.Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and the curtailment of the right to protest around Westminster and if those rights hadn't been restored, remoaners would not be able to protest there without getting arrested. Crime continued to decline under both Blair and Brown from a peak in 1995Multiple EU treaties signed without referendums. An EU constitution, freedom of movement, all contained within The Schuman Declaration, which is within The Treaty Of Rome, signed by Edward Heath. We had a referendum in 1975 to stay in the EEC.
Absurdist laws.
Unnecessary and hugely expensive ID cards.
Absurdist laws ? ... what ID cards are you refering to ?
Hugely inflated public sector, funded by borrowing.
Nope - absolutely got it wrong there, borrowing and deficit was well under control, but we have had this debate before.
Lets start by using the previous peak in government debt ( previous to Blair coming to power ), this was in financial year 93/94 following the recession caused by Norman Lamont and Black Wednesday, our deficit reached 7% of GDP. At no time ever did government borrowing under Tony Blair go beyond 4% of GDP.
The deficit did however rise sharply after we were hit by the World Banking Crisis and the recession that followed. This extra, unforseen, but necessary borrowing was not used to fund investment in public services.
High rates of industrial decline.
The highest rate of industrial decline seen in this country in modern times was during the premiership of Margaret Thatcher, between 1979 and 1983 Britains manufacturing output dropped by one third. Thatcher decimated British industry and manufacturing.
We exported less, and less, and less under Labour.
This is a good one - Due to the decimation of British manufacturing (see above), the balance of payments of the UK, that is the difference between what we import and export, went into the red in 1984, and has been in the red ever since.
NIgel Lawson (quote) "There is no adamantine law that says we have to produce as much in the way of manufactures as we consume. If it does turn out that we are relatively more efficient in world terms at providing services than at producing goods, then our national interest lies in a surplus on services and a deficit on goods."
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Post by dappy on Jul 21, 2023 15:36:05 GMT
Nothing unexpected in the results, then. Still, there's always the incidental pleasure of seeing Laurence Fox lose his deposit (again). You have to find humour where you can in these difficult days. For todays chuckle I give you Laurence Fox not only predicting glory in yesterdays by-election but predicting it would lead to him becoming the next Prime Minister. 700 votes later maybe not time to measure up the No10 curtains….. Check Reclaims Twitter feed. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 21, 2023 15:36:40 GMT
They sold our gold at knock down prices and bought Euros. A mistake in hindsight I agree, equivelant in losses ( around £3.5 billion ) to the other big fiscal mistake of Black Wednesday, insigated by Norman Lamont.
Robbed pensioners with a multi billion tax raid.
You mean from Pension Funds, not from pensioners, the majority of pensioners became substantialy better off, mostly due to pension tax credits, winter fuel allowances, free TV licences and free bus travel.
Unnecessary devolution which broke one nation into four and created extreme divisions.
Devolution that the people of Scotland and Wales wanted, and voted in favour of - NOTHING has created more division within the United Kingdom more than Brexit and Camerons referendum.
Unnecessary (and counter productive) bombing of Serbia after Rambouilliet agreement was sabotaged. Look into it. There was a peaceful way of getting armed peacekeepers into Kosovo, without the bombing campaign. A lot of civilian deaths could have been avoided, but weren't.
The UK, together with NATO and with support from the UN, went to the aid of minorities, our actions saved lives and helped to stop ethnic cleansing. Cost of living crisis began. There was no cost of living crisis, the times were good until the World Banking Crisis
Abolition of the Tax Exempt Special Savings Account and the Personal Equity Plan and the replacement with the far less attractive ISA. Nice if you are well off with lots of disposable income to invest, but better public services and an NHS which actually works and functions properly for ALL THE PEOPLE has to be funded.
Only decent savings options left were investing in houses. Result of that? Absurdly high house price inflation. Result of absurdly high house prices? Less money in people's pockets. First Trussell Trust food banks opened in 2000. Its not the fact that food charities exist, or existed, they have always existed, its the fact that Food Bank numbers exploded under this government.Illegal invasion of Iraq 2003, how many dead? Yeah, think about it, all is not forgiven. My view is that Sadam Hussain was a dictator who murdered many thousands of people, he was a butcher, he was responsible for a war with Iran, the invasion of Kuwait and attacks on several other neighbouring countries. He used WMD on his own people, and I do not believe there is anything to apologise for.Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 and the curtailment of the right to protest around Westminster and if those rights hadn't been restored, remoaners would not be able to protest there without getting arrested. Crime continued to decline under both Blair and Brown from a peak in 1995Multiple EU treaties signed without referendums. An EU constitution, freedom of movement, all contained within The Schuman Declaration, which is within The Treaty Of Rome, signed by Edward Heath. We had a referendum in 1975 to stay in the EEC.
Absurdist laws.
Unnecessary and hugely expensive ID cards.
Absurdist laws ? ... what ID cards are you refering to ?
Hugely inflated public sector, funded by borrowing.
Nope - absolutely got it wrong there, borrowing and deficit was well under control, but we have had this debate before.
Lets start by using the previous peak in government debt ( previous to Blair coming to power ), this was in financial year 93/94 following the recession caused by Norman Lamont and Black Wednesday, our deficit reached 7% of GDP. At no time ever did government borrowing under Tony Blair go beyond 4% of GDP.
The deficit did however rise sharply after we were hit by the World Banking Crisis and the recession that followed. This extra, unforseen, but necessary borrowing was not used to fund investment in public services.
High rates of industrial decline.
The highest rate of industrial decline seen in this country in modern times was during the premiership of Margaret Thatcher, between 1979 and 1983 Britains manufacturing output dropped by one third. Thatcher decimated British industry and manufacturing.
We exported less, and less, and less under Labour.
This is a good one - Due to the decimation of British manufacturing (see above), the balance of payments of the UK, that is the difference between what we import and export, went into the red in 1984, and has been in the red ever since.
NIgel Lawson (quote) "There is no adamantine law that says we have to produce as much in the way of manufactures as we consume. If it does turn out that we are relatively more efficient in world terms at providing services than at producing goods, then our national interest lies in a surplus on services and a deficit on goods."
£5bn tax raid www.moneymarketing.co.uk/news/brown-ignored-warnings-on-5bn-a-year-pensions-raid/ he was warned not to and ignored the warnings. Devolution was selective, England was left out. It wasn't necessary to hold the devolution refernedums or push for them as it left our country less equal and less fair. Barnett formula should have been scrapped instead and means tested spending introduced instead, so all areas of the UK would have equal opportunities and fairness. The Rambouilliet accords were sabotaged and made to fail. At the very last minute of the negotiations, when the Serbs were close to agreement: As a result the Serbs changed their position and refused. NATO's bombing actually hit very few genuine military targets as the Serbs had used so many decoys including fake tanks and fake artillery. The Serbs fooled NATO bomber crews into attacking microwave ovens which when pointed skywards and stripped of safety equipment produce an electromagnetic beam very similar to radar. The bombings did however cause 528 civilian casualties. There were no Trussell Trust Food Banks in the UK before 2000. Houses were affordable in the 1990's. After a decade of New Labour there were Victorian levels of poverty in some parts of the UK including beds in sheds. The cost of living crisis was there with Blair. The government was consistently borrowing to fund the public sector and was not returning the economy to surplus. It was in deficit from 2001 onwards. Iraq war was unnecessary the argument for war was a lie. Wars for regime change sake are illegal anyway. Too many innocents died because we destabilised that country. It also undermined the justified war in Afghanistan and was a factor in the failure there. Blair signed the Amsterdam and Nice Treaties without referendums. Gordon Brown signed the Lisbon treaty. It wasn't in their manifestos to. And Labour had lost every EU election since 1999. What mandate did they have?
"Whatabout John Major / Margaret Thatcher" does not excuse anything Blair did.
He had the power to reverse every decision the Tories had taken. Industrial decline under Blair included the closure of multiple car manufacturing businesses and other industrial producers. Even HP Sauce ditched the UK whilst Labour were in power. OK, the overvalued pound was a factor in this, but Labour did nothing about it. Absurd laws: Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, much misused by councils. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_of_Investigatory_Powers_Act_2000Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, contained absurd anti protest legislation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serious_Organised_Crime_and_Police_Act_2005ID cards act 2006 abolished by the Coalition government after it came to power in 2010. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006VCR Act 2006: www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-violent-crime-reduction-act-2006-commencement-no-3-order-2007-firearms-measures Under the act, this 4.5mm bb gun is legal in England and Wales and Northern Ireland without any special limitations for over 18s to purchase from shops. It is more powerful than the below gun. Capable of taking your eye out.  This one, which is a 6mm Airsoft (designed not to be able to penetrate the human eye), can only be owned by registered skirmishers, unless it is painted in a bright colour, like orange. Labour produced all kinds of absurd legislation. Don't try and kid me that they were any good. If your argument is, they're not "as bad" as the Tories, maybe you have an argument. But, if you're argument is that they're wonderful, you'd be deluded to make it. They're an abysmal party run by an abysmally dull man, who has all the ideas of an empty box. |
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Post by Handyman on Jul 21, 2023 15:53:21 GMT
Well if the Tories can pull of getting to grips with interest rate rises, cost of living crisis, energy bills, and the illegal migrants, I think Labour could be in trouble, just about the next GE time, if things are looking up for people, they wouldn't want to risk it by putting in a incompetent Labour government. If Labour do win the next GE this time they will not inherit a strong economy to fritter away again, any one make a guess at what they would do ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 16:31:28 GMT
Of course Labour will send economic migrants home, you appear to be confusing what is going on now to what happened in 2010. Asylum seekers crossing the channel became a problem since the Tories came to power and closed all the 'legal' routes, save a few. We have the agreement with the French to open asylum processing centres in France but have refused to do so. ULEZ is a Tory policy, although you would not think so unless Boris Johnson was taking his orders from Labour. The government has threatened Kahn with withholding funding if he does not role it out faster. Pointless dealing with France as they arguably have a bigger problem, it can only be dealt with here. First wave of ULEZ seems reasonable the outer zones will cost them votes as it is more difficult to get around with no tubes. That's the point France would welcome the UK processing the asylum seekers that want to come here. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2023 16:33:16 GMT
A Labour Government at the next election will be a Blair Government with Starmer as just a figure head. Blair and Mandelson are already peeping out from the shadows aiming to have another bite of the limelight cherry. Starmer is not man enough to stand on his own merit, dark forces are once again plotting. As if Westminster had not already sunk low enough. It has become a statesman/woman free zone where the main criteria for election is based purely on PR capability and more recently a woke agenda. Conspiracy theory. |
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