|
|
Post by buccaneer on Oct 30, 2022 19:57:14 GMT
Well is there is a massive lead for the uk rejoining as hinted , what im struggling to understand is why the labour party and keir starmer carry on with this nonsensical rubbish of making brexit work?
I know we are talking about starmer and his poor attempts at having some guile in politics , but surely most politicians have a rough idea of the public mood. Bearing that in mind , surely labour should be championing rejoin if its such a vote winner?
Maybe rejoin isnt as popular as some hint ,and as i keep saying , labour not as clever as they make out. Whats more likely to happen under a future labour government is rejoin by the back door. Labour dont like the plebs having a say in case they get the wrong answer , and if so , then all hell will break loose .
One poll says Yes, there is a massive lead for the UK rejoining. BUT polls are polls. They can be spot on; they can be way off. They are a legitimate guide and indicator, but you cannot rely on them as your sole basis when making a final decision as they are subject to mood and current events. Jo Swinson comes to mind. This is just one poll so maybe, realistically, rejoining is not that popular. However, trend does show that more people would vote to rejoin the EU and that more people believe that it was wrong to vote to leave the EU. It is obvious to me that Keith Starmer is anti-EU just like Corbyn. The only difference between them is that Keith Starmer has better presentation. He has more product on his hair than Corbyn. I don't believe for one moment these alleged people surveyed are willing to ditch the pound and have the euro as their currency in order to join the EU. |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Oct 30, 2022 22:36:41 GMT
if the UK and EU both wanted the UK to rejoin they'd use the Swedish solution to prevent the Euro being an issue.
IF is a big word though and of course the bigger hurdle in such circumstances would be the rebate
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2022 7:38:54 GMT
You brought it up. I didn't. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't misunderstand what you were saying. BTW, the referendum was not a mandate. It was an advice that any government could have chosen to heed. Or not. It wasn't even democratic is the strictest, most technical sense of the term. Your trouble is that you use the word mandate at your convenience. It is a mandate (with legal foundation) when you want to legitimise the referendum, but it is not a mandate (without legal foundation) when you're faced with the issue of the court declaring the results undemocratic and thus, void, due to electoral fraud. You understood me perfectly well.
Keir Starmer felt so strongly about the Brexit referendum result in June 2016 that he quit as a junior shadow minister under Jeremy Corbyn.
A few months later he returned to the Labour frontbench as shadow Brexit secretary and spent the next four years campaigning to mitigate the result, which he described as “catastrophic”, while at the same time retaining voters in “red wall” constituencies.
But he was a remainer.
He campaigned against a no-deal Brexit and for a second referendum to give the people a “confirmatory vote” on any deal with Brussels.
Ah the anti democratic remainer refusal to accept a democratic mandate shines through yet again. If one of the biggest votes in uk history to leave isnt a mandate then i dont know what is.
I say that as somene who voted remain , but was repulsed by the sheer anti democratic arrogance of many remainers.
you are arguing semantics mate.
mandate
an official order or commission to do something.
the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election
give (someone) authority to act in a certain way.
im sure most fair minded people accept leave had a mandate after the 2016 referendum result. burying your head in the sand in denial after the events of these past 6 years , especially the fact remain couldnt win one at the ballot box in free and fair uk elections since 2015 shows how much in denial you are.
Shifty Starmer can't be trusted on Brexit
Keir Starmer not trusted on Brexit by GB News viewers despite ruling out campaign to rejoin EU – poll
So, you hate Keith Starmer. You use the word mandatory loosely to interchange it with advisory. And you insist that, either way, the referendum was legally binding and by your own definition of the word, democratic. Fine. My position is diagonally opposite yours. Now that we've re-established our positions, let's go back to this poll: the finding is that this 14-point lead is influenced by the economy. So, arguably, Brexit is all about the economy after all. What happened to "taking back control and regaining sovereignty" is my question. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2022 7:41:52 GMT
One poll says Yes, there is a massive lead for the UK rejoining. BUT polls are polls. They can be spot on; they can be way off. They are a legitimate guide and indicator, but you cannot rely on them as your sole basis when making a final decision as they are subject to mood and current events. Jo Swinson comes to mind. This is just one poll so maybe, realistically, rejoining is not that popular. However, trend does show that more people would vote to rejoin the EU and that more people believe that it was wrong to vote to leave the EU. It is obvious to me that Keith Starmer is anti-EU just like Corbyn. The only difference between them is that Keith Starmer has better presentation. He has more product on his hair than Corbyn. I don't believe for one moment these alleged people surveyed are willing to ditch the pound and have the euro as their currency in order to join the EU. They probably were not asked that question. |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Oct 31, 2022 7:59:31 GMT
I don't believe for one moment these alleged people surveyed are willing to ditch the pound and have the euro as their currency in order to join the EU. They probably were not asked that question. 'They won't know what they're voting for' until they are asked. Makes re-joining the EU much more difficult for anti-democrats though.. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Oct 31, 2022 8:12:23 GMT
You understood me perfectly well.
Keir Starmer felt so strongly about the Brexit referendum result in June 2016 that he quit as a junior shadow minister under Jeremy Corbyn.
A few months later he returned to the Labour frontbench as shadow Brexit secretary and spent the next four years campaigning to mitigate the result, which he described as “catastrophic”, while at the same time retaining voters in “red wall” constituencies.
But he was a remainer.
He campaigned against a no-deal Brexit and for a second referendum to give the people a “confirmatory vote” on any deal with Brussels.
Ah the anti democratic remainer refusal to accept a democratic mandate shines through yet again. If one of the biggest votes in uk history to leave isnt a mandate then i dont know what is.
I say that as somene who voted remain , but was repulsed by the sheer anti democratic arrogance of many remainers.
you are arguing semantics mate.
mandate
an official order or commission to do something.
the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election
give (someone) authority to act in a certain way.
im sure most fair minded people accept leave had a mandate after the 2016 referendum result. burying your head in the sand in denial after the events of these past 6 years , especially the fact remain couldnt win one at the ballot box in free and fair uk elections since 2015 shows how much in denial you are.
Shifty Starmer can't be trusted on Brexit
Keir Starmer not trusted on Brexit by GB News viewers despite ruling out campaign to rejoin EU – poll
So, you hate Keith Starmer. It is irrelevant wether or not i dislike Keir starmer. Its unquestionable that keir starmer is an anti democrat and a out and out europhile who cannot be trusted on the EU issue. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Oct 31, 2022 8:20:04 GMT
You understood me perfectly well.
Keir Starmer felt so strongly about the Brexit referendum result in June 2016 that he quit as a junior shadow minister under Jeremy Corbyn.
A few months later he returned to the Labour frontbench as shadow Brexit secretary and spent the next four years campaigning to mitigate the result, which he described as “catastrophic”, while at the same time retaining voters in “red wall” constituencies.
But he was a remainer.
He campaigned against a no-deal Brexit and for a second referendum to give the people a “confirmatory vote” on any deal with Brussels.
Ah the anti democratic remainer refusal to accept a democratic mandate shines through yet again. If one of the biggest votes in uk history to leave isnt a mandate then i dont know what is.
I say that as somene who voted remain , but was repulsed by the sheer anti democratic arrogance of many remainers.
you are arguing semantics mate.
mandate
an official order or commission to do something.
the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an election
give (someone) authority to act in a certain way.
im sure most fair minded people accept leave had a mandate after the 2016 referendum result. burying your head in the sand in denial after the events of these past 6 years , especially the fact remain couldnt win one at the ballot box in free and fair uk elections since 2015 shows how much in denial you are.
Shifty Starmer can't be trusted on Brexit
Keir Starmer not trusted on Brexit by GB News viewers despite ruling out campaign to rejoin EU – poll
. And you insist that, either way, the referendum was legally binding and by your own definition of the word, democratic. using the quote tags , quote me where i said the 2016 brexit referendum was legally binding? If you cant , then we can dismiss your post as made up nonsense .
I do insist the referendum result was mandatory under the rules of any democratic society.
If you whining remianers can "welch" out of any vote you dont like ,what exactly is the point of democracy?
You could have stopped cameron holding a referendum by voting in labour in 2015GE. Remainers failed , brexiters won.
you could have stopped brexit by winning the 2016 referendum. Remainers failed brexiters won.
both main parties promised to enact brexit in GE2017. Again brexiters won by backing them.
Euro elections 2019.....bbc and remainers were reduced to denying reality and demcoracy again...brexiters won.
GE2019 , self explanatory. Brexites won a landslide , remianers humped again.
What part of the word no to the EU do you not understand?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2022 11:16:26 GMT
. And you insist that, either way, the referendum was legally binding and by your own definition of the word, democratic. Fine. Here's a quote: "I do insist the referendum result was mandatory under the rules of any democratic society."
Do bear in mind that "mandate" denotes "mandatory". "Mandatory" connotes "legal" (demanded by law in politics, governance, judiciary, etc.) and "binding" (it is compulsory & obligatory.) First, you should stop thinking that democracy is what you want it to be. You must ask yourself what democracy really means, i.e., define it without diluting its real meaning and definition to suit your own bias. Then come back to me. GE 2015: Not a vote for Brexit. The term hadn't even existed yet that time. GE 2019: Not a vote for Brexit. It was a vote for Boris Johnson and a vote against Jeremy Corbyn. Both of them were Brexiteers. Johnson showed his card everywhere. Corbyn's remained in his wallet. That's the difference. EU 2019: Brexit Party, 29 seats: Non-Brexit parties, 40 seats. This part?: Poll of Polls, to February 2022: How would you vote if there was another referendum: 48% Remain v 40% Leave Poll of Polls, to October 2022 : Do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU: 54% Wrong v 34% Right From this article: A tracker poll found support for reversing Brexit is now at 57 per cent, compared to just 43 per cent who want to keep it. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2022 11:23:01 GMT
So, you hate Keith Starmer. It is irrelevant wether or not i dislike Keir starmer. Its unquestionable that keir starmer is an anti democrat and a out and out europhile who cannot be trusted on the EU issue. So you think Keith Starmer is anti-democrat and an out and out Europhile who cannot be trusted on the EU issue. What is your point relative to this article about rejoining EU taking a record 14-point lead in latest poll? |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 1, 2022 7:43:34 GMT
Fine. Here's a quote: "I do insist the referendum result was mandatory under the rules of any democratic society."
Do bear in mind that "mandate" denotes "mandatory". "Mandatory" connotes "legal" (demanded by law in politics, governance, judiciary, etc.) and "binding" (it is compulsory & obligatory.) First, you should stop thinking that democracy is what you want it to be. You must ask yourself what democracy really means, i.e., define it without diluting its real meaning and definition to suit your own bias. Then come back to me. GE 2015: Not a vote for Brexit. The term hadn't even existed yet that time. GE 2019: Not a vote for Brexit. It was a vote for Boris Johnson and a vote against Jeremy Corbyn. Both of them were Brexiteers. Johnson showed his card everywhere. Corbyn's remained in his wallet. That's the difference. EU 2019: Brexit Party, 29 seats: Non-Brexit parties, 40 seats. This part?: Poll of Polls, to February 2022: How would you vote if there was another referendum: 48% Remain v 40% Leave Poll of Polls, to October 2022 : Do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the EU: 54% Wrong v 34% Right From this article: A tracker poll found support for reversing Brexit is now at 57 per cent, compared to just 43 per cent who want to keep it. What part?
Is this the ten millionth remainer regurgitation of the silent majority who always appear in polls but never at actual votes to remain?
polls dont win elections mate , decide who is government , and what their constitutional strategy is. Told you if you want back in the EU , then vote europhile starmer into power.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 1, 2022 7:46:06 GMT
It is irrelevant wether or not i dislike Keir starmer. Its unquestionable that keir starmer is an anti democrat and a out and out europhile who cannot be trusted on the EU issue. So you think Keith Starmer is anti-democrat and an out and out Europhile who cannot be trusted on the EU issue. What is your point relative to this article about rejoining EU taking a record 14-point lead in latest poll? I do. Follow the discussion between us to see the relevance ,during the ebb and flow of debate.
As for the article...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2022 10:46:56 GMT
What part? Is this the ten millionth remainer regurgitation of the silent majority who always appear in polls but never at actual votes to remain? polls dont win elections mate , decide who is government , and what their constitutional strategy is. Told you if you want back in the EU , then vote europhile starmer into power.
The part where you "Brexise" GE2015, GE2019, EU2019 and assert that their results mean that we have declared an emphatic No to the EU . You wanna dismiss polls completely? Fine. But don't tell me! Tell Sunak, Truss, Johnson, Reesmug, Braverman and the entire Conservative Party. Allow us all to see if their bollocks are as big as yours. So you think Keith Starmer is anti-democrat and an out and out Europhile who cannot be trusted on the EU issue. What is your point relative to this article about rejoining EU taking a record 14-point lead in latest poll? I do. Follow the discussion between us to see the relevance ,during the ebb and flow of debate. As for the article... Oh, so, you are a mouthbreather!  Well, this is you: I say: "If the 14-point Rejoin lead is down to the changes in economic situation; where does that leave the original Brexiteer "control and sovereignty" argument?" You say: "I hate Keith Starmer." |
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Nov 1, 2022 12:37:19 GMT
What part?
Is this the ten millionth remainer regurgitation of the silent majority who always appear in polls but never at actual votes to remain?
polls dont win elections mate , decide who is government , and what their constitutional strategy is. Told you if you want back in the EU , then vote europhile starmer into power.
Polls are indicative but you allude to a point I've made before. Those who wanted and want out are passionate about their wish, those who believe we should have remained see other priorities in their decision making so as you say may not vote or in elections may vote on other criteria. And that's real politik |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 1, 2022 15:18:47 GMT
What part? Is this the ten millionth remainer regurgitation of the silent majority who always appear in polls but never at actual votes to remain? polls dont win elections mate , decide who is government , and what their constitutional strategy is. Told you if you want back in the EU , then vote europhile starmer into power.
The part where you "Brexise" GE2015, GE2019, EU2019 and assert that their results mean that we have declared an emphatic No to the EU . You wanna dismiss polls completely? Fine. But don't tell me! Tell Sunak, Truss, Johnson, Reesmug, Braverman and the entire Conservative Party. Allow us all to see if their bollocks are as big as yours. I do. Follow the discussion between us to see the relevance ,during the ebb and flow of debate. As for the article... Oh, so, you are a mouthbreather! Well, this is you: I say: "If the 14-point Rejoin lead is down to the changes in economic situation; where does that leave the original Brexiteer "control and sovereignty" argument?" You say: "I hate Keith Starmer." No mate this is me....
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Nov 1, 2022 15:22:54 GMT
What part?
Is this the ten millionth remainer regurgitation of the silent majority who always appear in polls but never at actual votes to remain?
polls dont win elections mate , decide who is government , and what their constitutional strategy is. Told you if you want back in the EU , then vote europhile starmer into power.
Polls are indicative but you allude to a point I've made before. Those who wanted and want out are passionate about their wish, those who believe we should have remained see other priorities in their decision making so as you say may not vote or in elections may vote on other criteria. And that's real politik Thanks steve , fully agree. Nice to talk to an adult in this thread once again.
The real politik is if remainers want the uk to rejoin they know what they need to do..... vote starmer.
The real politick is if brexiters want to stay out the EU , they know what they need to do. Crush labour. Its a simple and straight forward issue of going into the ballot box and voting for what you want.
|
|
