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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 22, 2023 7:12:30 GMT
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Post by jonksy on Jun 22, 2023 8:53:47 GMT
Your beloved EUSSR are dying on their feet hash. I haven't seen the UK using a begging bowl have you? |
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Post by Vinny on Jun 22, 2023 9:04:30 GMT
The traditional supporters of European Union were the economic hard right of the Tory party.
People like John Major, Michael Heseltine, Kenneth Clarke.
The traditional opponents of European Union, were the Labour left.
It was the Maastricht Treaty that showed some of the Tories that this federalist project was a mistake, but even in 2016, most still supported it.
It goes far beyond what any trading organisation needs to be.
It has a political dimension, a dimension of governance, and despite having MEPs (something it did not in 1975), there is still an unelected unaccountable Commission.
No free trade organisation needs to be so cumbersome and expensive, and invasively political.
There was no need for customs union, there was no need for the Common Agricultural Policy, Common Fisheries Policy, or the excessive regulation.
All that was needed was an abolition of customs tariffs between members.
Even David Owen, a man who in 1981 left Labour with Shirley Williams, Roy Jenkins, and Bill Rodgers in opposition to Labour's manifesto of unilaterally leaving the EEC (which would have been without a referendum), ultimately realised, the EU was crap, and campaigned to leave in 2016.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 22, 2023 9:15:26 GMT
Vinny, your opening point is correct, which was very much the point of the article. It was speculating that there has been a sea change - personally I'm not sure that there is a direct correlation between the two. At least you read and understood the article, which the same cannot be said for everyone.
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Post by Vinny on Jun 22, 2023 9:23:27 GMT
You're very welcome.
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Post by Toreador on Jun 22, 2023 9:59:07 GMT
Vinny, your opening point is correct, which was very much the point of the article. It was speculating that there has been a sea change - personally I'm not sure that there is a direct correlation between the two. At least you read and understood the article, which the same cannot be said for everyone. I read it, I understood it, I thought it was a stoking up of poorly perceived ideas. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jun 22, 2023 10:06:31 GMT
LOL... poor andy he can't get to grips with the fact the EU is all but finished, many more members (the top contributors) are already making their own Exit plans, the old EU elite gravy train is running out of steam, we'll need more than the SFO to sort out their corruption, it will be on a scale we've never seen the likes of.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 22, 2023 10:20:03 GMT
Vinny, your opening point is correct, which was very much the point of the article. It was speculating that there has been a sea change - personally I'm not sure that there is a direct correlation between the two. At least you read and understood the article, which the same cannot be said for everyone. I read it, I understood it, I thought it was a stoking up of poorly perceived ideas. I agree with you, hence my comments on my opening post. I still found it interesting. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 22, 2023 10:20:41 GMT
LOL... poor andy he can't get to grips with the fact the EU is all but finished, many more members (the top contributors) are already making their own Exit plans, the old EU elite gravy train is running out of steam, we'll need more than the SFO to sort out their corruption, it will be on a scale we've never seen the likes of. Have you read the article and have an opinion on it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 10:21:25 GMT
As far as "The Left" are concerned, it tends to be the Nutty Left who are orientated towards Brexit, the Militant types, but of course these people now have very little say in todays Labour Party.
Generally the same in the Tory Party, its mostly the populist Right who are Brexit supporters, the result is that a huge middle ground which encompasses both Left and Right are the pro Europe crowd, which I think tells you something.
Its minority interest / presure group politics ... either that it does not fit in with our vision of a Socialist Utopia, or that we dont want to associate with foreigners, especially them "Froggies".
The Neanderthal's of politics, the ones who live in Lala land
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Post by Fairsociety on Jun 22, 2023 10:28:34 GMT
LOL... poor andy he can't get to grips with the fact the EU is all but finished, many more members (the top contributors) are already making their own Exit plans, the old EU elite gravy train is running out of steam, we'll need more than the SFO to sort out their corruption, it will be on a scale we've never seen the likes of. Have you read the article and have an opinion on it? I get the gist of all your posts or threads, they all have the same theme, that one day we'll rejoin the EU, and my 'opinion' every time you post it is ... NO WE WONT.
I don't know if you know this, even if we rejoined 'today' and put the wheels in motion it would take at least 10 years before we could be fully paid up members again, and yet again I am telling you the EU within 10 years will not function as it does today.
It's a outdated institution, and if its going to survive it needs to rebrand itself, they are no longer big players on the world stage since the UK left, and they are struggling to keep other members onboard, it was always a case of they needed us more than we needed them, but the likes of you Starmer/Ed Davey and the rest of the lefty Europhile's could never come to terms with that FACT.
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Post by Pacifico on Jun 22, 2023 10:34:48 GMT
I think the author raised a very interesting idea - with the rise of populist politicians across the continent and the increasing power that the Eastern countries (who are far more conservative) wield, will the EU in the future be the bastion of progressive liberal policies?. And if it doesnt how will the current Labour Party deal with that change in approach - will they see the US with its increasingly progressive political establishment as more comfortable bedfellows?.
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Post by Vinny on Jun 22, 2023 10:54:50 GMT
As far as "The Left" are concerned, it tends to be the Nutty Left who are orientated towards Brexit, the Militant types, but of course these people now have very little say in todays Labour Party. Generally the same in the Tory Party, its mostly the populist Right who are Brexit supporters, the result is that a huge middle ground which encompasses both Left and Right are the pro Europe crowd, which I think tells you something. Its minority interest / presure group politics ... either that it does not fit in with our vision of a Socialist Utopia, or that we dont want to associate with foreigners, especially them "Froggies". The Neanderthal's of politics, the ones who live in Lala land You haven't explained why it "tends to be the Nutty left".... I don't think you're correct on this matter. In my experience the nutty left love the EU, as they support freedom of movement, above democracy. And as for pro Brexit people. We're pro democracy. You can call us any name under the sun, but we're pro democracy and the ability to choose how you're governed melts away in the homogeneous one size fits none, Commission dominated EU. It's not that we hate foreigners (we don't), we're just extremely passionate about democracy and the Commission are not elected. Voters cannot control policy direction when the people who propose it are not elected. Voters can control policy direction when parties put forwards manifestos and the people go to the ballot box. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 10:58:31 GMT
As far as "The Left" are concerned, it tends to be the Nutty Left who are orientated towards Brexit, the Militant types, but of course these people now have very little say in todays Labour Party. Generally the same in the Tory Party, its mostly the populist Right who are Brexit supporters, the result is that a huge middle ground which encompasses both Left and Right are the pro Europe crowd, which I think tells you something. Its minority interest / presure group politics ... either that it does not fit in with our vision of a Socialist Utopia, or that we dont want to associate with foreigners, especially them "Froggies". The Neanderthal's of politics, the ones who live in Lala land You have to laugh at the self-appointed leftist intelligentsia and how they view RedRum. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jun 22, 2023 11:20:35 GMT
As far as "The Left" are concerned, it tends to be the Nutty Left who are orientated towards Brexit, the Militant types, but of course these people now have very little say in todays Labour Party. Generally the same in the Tory Party, its mostly the populist Right who are Brexit supporters, the result is that a huge middle ground which encompasses both Left and Right are the pro Europe crowd, which I think tells you something. Its minority interest / presure group politics ... either that it does not fit in with our vision of a Socialist Utopia, or that we dont want to associate with foreigners, especially them "Froggies". The Neanderthal's of politics, the ones who live in Lala land I think you are wrong here. If that was true, remain would have easily won. We know that plenty of ordinary working class people voted for Brexit, to argue that they were all extremists seems counter intuitive. I think that position may be more true of the politicians than the people. My argument is that there isn't really a correlation between left & right and remain & leave. |
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