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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 31, 2022 8:34:35 GMT
It would be interesting to know what the question was - you can get any answer you want by asking the question in the right way. It would also be interesting to find out why the 57% want to rejoin the EU. The thing is I don't think the majority of the population know anything about the EU - and that includes most MPs. As Pacifico says the question almost certainly asked people if they wanted to rejoin the EU under the original terms - i.e. just cancel Brexit. But that deal would almost certainly not be on offer - there would be a punishment beating, of course, and we would have to accept the current terms - joining the euro, no rebate etc. But we've got basically what we wanted now. We can trade freely with the EU but we don't have to agree to free movement and we don't have to pay the EU billions every year. We're also out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ. There are a few problems admittedly. We are still in the ECHR but that was just because we agreed to accept the judgement of the ECHR - we could have rejected the ECHR even while in the EU, but there are large number of stupid MPs who won't agree to opting out. And the Irish Protocol places a hard border in the Irish Sea. This is apparently the first time that a nation state (i.e. the UK) has agreed to place a border in their own country without being forced to do so by war. So NI is still in the Single Market and has to abide by EU rules. We need to invoke Article 16 and sort it out. y I think you have confused the ECHR with the ECJ. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 31, 2022 9:39:18 GMT
It would be interesting to know what the question was - you can get any answer you want by asking the question in the right way. It would also be interesting to find out why the 57% want to rejoin the EU. The thing is I don't think the majority of the population know anything about the EU - and that includes most MPs. As Pacifico says the question almost certainly asked people if they wanted to rejoin the EU under the original terms - i.e. just cancel Brexit. But that deal would almost certainly not be on offer - there would be a punishment beating, of course, and we would have to accept the current terms - joining the euro, no rebate etc. But we've got basically what we wanted now. We can trade freely with the EU but we don't have to agree to free movement and we don't have to pay the EU billions every year. We're also out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ. There are a few problems admittedly. We are still in the ECHR but that was just because we agreed to accept the judgement of the ECHR - we could have rejected the ECHR even while in the EU, but there are large number of stupid MPs who won't agree to opting out. And the Irish Protocol places a hard border in the Irish Sea. This is apparently the first time that a nation state (i.e. the UK) has agreed to place a border in their own country without being forced to do so by war. So NI is still in the Single Market and has to abide by EU rules. We need to invoke Article 16 and sort it out. y I think you have confused the ECHR with the ECJ. Don't be silly. We're out of the ECJ. But we remain subject to the judgements of the ECHR - by choice apparently. I meant exactly what I said. As always people who wanted to remain in the EU tend not to know what it is. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 31, 2022 10:47:04 GMT
So many remainers complained it was the oldies that massively supported Brexit. Yet those same remainers now complain that voters didn't understand what they were voting for. I would suggest the massive number of oldies were well aware of what and why they voted to leave.
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 31, 2022 13:17:05 GMT
I think you have confused the ECHR with the ECJ. Don't be silly. We're out of the ECJ. But we remain subject to the judgements of the ECHR - by choice apparently. I meant exactly what I said. As always people who wanted to remain in the EU tend not to know what it is. So you totally understand that the ECHR is absolutely nothing to do with the EU? |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 31, 2022 13:21:55 GMT
As much as those who voted in 2016. Of course, there is a debate as to how much was understood, and in turn whether the referendum itself was over simplistic. I think this has contributed to the divide that we currently have. The referendum question had to be simplistic. The explanation of what the question meant was explained by the various campaigns. And ALL the campaigns were clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. All people had to do was try to understand what the SM and CU are. The SM means that you abide by the 4 pillars of the EU (free movement, product rules etc) and the CU means that you have to raise barriers to trade against all non-EU countries (i.e. the whole Commonwealth). In other words it's a trade protection zone. Why anyone should want to be part of this I don't know. The "EU" we joined was very different beast. It simply provided a free trade area. You are explaing to people who saw some form of ambiguity in a simple binary choice my freind.....It's similar to trying to nail custard to the wall. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 31, 2022 13:40:23 GMT
As much as those who voted in 2016. Of course, there is a debate as to how much was understood, and in turn whether the referendum itself was over simplistic. I think this has contributed to the divide that we currently have. The referendum question had to be simplistic. The explanation of what the question meant was explained by the various campaigns. And ALL the campaigns were clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. All people had to do was try to understand what the SM and CU are. The SM means that you abide by the 4 pillars of the EU (free movement, product rules etc) and the CU means that you have to raise barriers to trade against all non-EU countries (i.e. the whole Commonwealth). In other words it's a trade protection zone. Why anyone should want to be part of this I don't know. The "EU" we joined was very different beast. It simply provided a free trade area. A popular misconception^ Every household was given a leaflet prior to the key 1975 referendum that made it clear then the EEC was far more than just a free trade area. |
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 31, 2022 14:08:57 GMT
A poll in the street or on the internet is one thing... When the stark truth of how fucked the EU is laid out then that will be a different matter. In 10 years that might change... but for the next 5 years the EU is in big trouble. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 31, 2022 14:15:33 GMT
The referendum question had to be simplistic. The explanation of what the question meant was explained by the various campaigns. And ALL the campaigns were clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union. All people had to do was try to understand what the SM and CU are. The SM means that you abide by the 4 pillars of the EU (free movement, product rules etc) and the CU means that you have to raise barriers to trade against all non-EU countries (i.e. the whole Commonwealth). In other words it's a trade protection zone. Why anyone should want to be part of this I don't know. The "EU" we joined was very different beast. It simply provided a free trade area. A popular misconception^ Every household was given a leaflet prior to the key 1975 referendum that made it clear then the EEC was far more than just a free trade area. That pro EUSSR arsewipe did no such thing
In 1975 the government set out the aims of the European Community as bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth and boosting world trade. They also set out that the EC would “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.
Where did it state that the UK would lose their own sovereignty along with their own identity or become a member of the United staes of Europe?
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Post by Handyman on Oct 31, 2022 15:05:11 GMT
I cast my vote back in 75 I voted yes because they claimed it would create more jobs better pay and conditions etc in the UK, if I have known that eventually we would lose our Sovereignty and be run by Brussels I would have noted No
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Post by Steve on Oct 31, 2022 15:48:11 GMT
A popular misconception^ Every household was given a leaflet prior to the key 1975 referendum that made it clear then the EEC was far more than just a free trade area. That pro EUSSR arsewipe did no such thing
In 1975 the government set out the aims of the European Community as bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth and boosting world trade. They also set out that the EC would “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.
Where did it state that the UK would lose their own sovereignty along with their own identity or become a member of the United staes of Europe?
So let me get this right You admit that the 1975 leaflet every house received made it clear that the EEC was also about bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth, boosting world trade, to “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.
And yet you don't realise that that is more than 'just a free Trade Area'? Really?  I suggest you throw a six and have another go at making a sensible post |
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Post by Steve on Oct 31, 2022 15:54:16 GMT
I cast my vote back in 75 I voted yes because they claimed it would create more jobs better pay and conditions etc in the UK, if I have known that eventually we would lose our Sovereignty and be run by Brussels I would have noted No Please say when Brussels determined - who we would or would not go to war with
- Income taxes
- Speed limits
- Whether we could leave the EEC/EU
- Education policy and delivery
- How we organised and regulated health services
- How we regulated media
- Criminal law and sentencing
- Policing
- State Pensions
- Our levels of welfare benefits
- Whether we drove on the left or right side of the road
- Our currency
- Our interest rates
- (I could go on)
because I'm betting you cannot and your 'run by Brussels' is not just utter  but you full well know it |
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Post by Handyman on Oct 31, 2022 16:06:25 GMT
What on earth are you rambling on about? my post was to simply point out that I took part in the 1975 referendum and why I voted yes, it was only later when Major who was PM at the time took my country into the EU without a referendum which meant we had EU regulations and rules forced onto our government that they had to abide by, nor would have voted yes back in 1975 had I known that we had to allow freedom of movement by EU citizens into my country at will.
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Post by Steve on Oct 31, 2022 16:31:35 GMT
What on earth are you rambling on about? my post was to simply point out that I took part in the 1975 referendum and why I voted yes, it was only later when Major who was PM at the time took my country into the EU without a referendum which meant we had EU regulations and rules forced onto our government that they had to abide by, nor would have voted yes back in 1975 had I known that we had to allow freedom of movement by EU citizens into my country at will. So you're saying that someone hacked your account to post this: . . .if I have known that eventually we would lose our Sovereignty and be run by Brussels . . . Sure looks like you posted it and clearly it isn't true. Oh and in the biggest electoral exercise in UK history, the public gave John Major that authority to transfer our EEC membership to the EU (see 1992 General Election) |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 31, 2022 16:47:38 GMT
Oh and in the biggest electoral exercise in UK history, the public gave John Major that authority to transfer our EEC membership to the EU (see 1992 General Election) Are you sure about that? It may have done in a very obtuse way but unless I missed it, and that is always possible, it did not actually say that. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 31, 2022 16:55:02 GMT
That pro EUSSR arsewipe did no such thing
In 1975 the government set out the aims of the European Community as bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth and boosting world trade. They also set out that the EC would “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.
Where did it state that the UK would lose their own sovereignty along with their own identity or become a member of the United staes of Europe?
So let me get this right You admit that the 1975 leaflet every house received made it clear that the EEC was also about bringing “together the peoples of Europe”, raising living standards and improving working conditions, promoting growth, boosting world trade, to “help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world” and “help maintain peace and freedom”.
And yet you don't realise that that is more than 'just a free Trade Area'? Really? I suggest you throw a six and have another go at making a sensible post It did NOT make it clear. I see you avoided to state that it never mentioned the loss of UK sovereignty along with theour own identity. maybe you the one who should throw the dice. You know full well that people would not have voted for it if they were told the truth. As they wouldn't have voted to join on the shirtlifters bullshit. |
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