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Post by sheepy on Nov 6, 2022 19:24:04 GMT
People didn't like the EU either and said so several times, it still doesn't stop people trying to sing its praises, not like you would do that of course. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 6, 2022 19:34:46 GMT
yes I read them and I also read your post and reread the dictionary definition of a lie You've woefully failed to prove he lied. A lie is an of fundamental dishonesty by making a statement you know to be false. It does not mean making a statement you later realise is not correct or wise. That's a U Turn. Take that first pledge on tax. Only a fool would bet against a Starmer government increasing that top rate of tax by 5%. You might remember he stood up just recently and pledged to reverse Truss's 5% cut so every prospect he'd add 5% to whatever the Tories end up with. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 19:55:35 GMT
yes I read them and I also read your post and reread the dictionary definition of a lie You've woefully failed to prove he lied. A lie is an of fundamental dishonesty by making a statement you know to be false. It does not mean making a statement you later realise is not correct or wise. That's a U Turn. Take that first pledge on tax. Only a fool would bet against a Starmer government increasing that top rate of tax by 5%. You might remember he stood up just recently and pledged to reverse Truss's 5% cut so every prospect he'd add 5% to whatever the Tories end up with. So Starmer didn't lie? He simply immediately realised the pledges he made were unwise once elected and u-turned on them? Who the hell are you trying to kid here? lol.. It's laughable and pathetic. Some of us knew he was lying to us at the time. The people who were backing him were evidence enough of that. If you think he meant it and wasn't lying, curious how he so quickly came to un-mean it isn't it? You are either a gullible fool or are trying to mistake the rest of us for such. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 6, 2022 20:12:37 GMT
In your opinion was Corbyn pro Brexit, my memory is of him flip flopping on it as he tried to work out what the voters wanted him to say in the 2019 GE. I doubt whether Corbyn was pro-EU in his heart but was persuaded to support membership. He was quite obviously lukewarm about it though and it clearly wasn't an issue that fired him up. But just because Corbyn thought a certain way does not mean I did too. I have my own mind and did not agree with Corbyn on everything. I was never any kind of Corbyn cultist as we on the left are loved to be caricatured. My question was not about what you believe, but more about Corbyn's honesty. As you say he was not an EU fan and I remember him saying as much, yet the 2019 manifesto stated that Labour would offer a second referendum after they had negotiated a deal with the EU. This was then withdrawn last minute and my view was that this was expedience over honesty, anything to get elected. Fact check on Corbyns changing Brexit stance. www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stance |
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Post by patman post on Nov 6, 2022 20:52:38 GMT
I say this Because the case for Brexit was Built on lies by both the leave campaign and the press that supported it. Asking “should we have another Brexit Referendum?” seems pointless until there’s something to vote on. Firstly, there would have to be some indication of what the U.K. and EU agree might be a feasible association between the two entities. And one would have to sound out the other as to whether there’s any point worth exploring. Frankly, I don’t see the present UK administration finalising and implementing current agreements much before end 2024, let alone looking to formulate others. In short, it would need a fundamental political upset to see the UK even thinking it might achieve Turkey’s status in its relationship with the EU within the next ten years… |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2022 21:05:31 GMT
I doubt whether Corbyn was pro-EU in his heart but was persuaded to support membership. He was quite obviously lukewarm about it though and it clearly wasn't an issue that fired him up. But just because Corbyn thought a certain way does not mean I did too. I have my own mind and did not agree with Corbyn on everything. I was never any kind of Corbyn cultist as we on the left are loved to be caricatured. My question was not about what you believe, but more about Corbyn's honesty. As you say he was not an EU fan and I remember him saying as much, yet the 2019 manifesto stated that Labour would offer a second referendum after they had negotiated a deal with the EU. This was then withdrawn last minute and my view was that this was expedience over honesty, anything to get elected. Fact check on Corbyns changing Brexit stance. www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyns-changing-brexit-stanceI believe Corbyn was at heart a campaigner on issues dear to him, in many ways better suited to the backbenches. He tended to campaign passionately for causes he believed in strongly, but just couldn't turn it on for things he cared less about. And I just don't think he cared either way about Brexit or not all that much. As such he was open to others doing most of the running, principally amongst these being Starmer himself, main architect of the second referendum policy which actually did Labour a lot of damage. Corbyn and those around him probably realised this and tried too late to distance themselves from a policy driven by Starmer about which they were at best lukewarm, but it was too late. And to be honest Corbyn in 2019 hardly came across as a man willing to do anything to get elected. On the contrary, he remained at heart an issues campaigner in which he spoke from the heart. He tended very much to say what he thought and think what he said, even when this was not politically expedient. I just don't think the EU was a subject he cared about all that much and thus he let others make the decisions and just went with the flow here |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 6, 2022 21:27:44 GMT
I say this Because the case for Brexit was Built on lies by both the leave campaign and the press that supported it. Asking “should we have another Brexit Referendum?” seems pointless until there’s something to vote on. Firstly, there would have to be some indication of what the U.K. and EU agree might be a feasible association between the two entities. And one would have to sound out the other as to whether there’s any point worth exploring. Frankly, I don’t see the present UK administration finalising and implementing current agreements much before end 2024, let alone looking to formulate others. In short, it would need a fundamental political upset to see the UK even thinking it might achieve Turkey’s status in its relationship with the EU within the next ten years… Yep. I wish they'd done that first time round. Other than that I agree with you. |
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Post by Steve on Nov 6, 2022 23:38:34 GMT
yes I read them and I also read your post and reread the dictionary definition of a lie You've woefully failed to prove he lied. A lie is an of fundamental dishonesty by making a statement you know to be false. It does not mean making a statement you later realise is not correct or wise. That's a U Turn. Take that first pledge on tax. Only a fool would bet against a Starmer government increasing that top rate of tax by 5%. You might remember he stood up just recently and pledged to reverse Truss's 5% cut so every prospect he'd add 5% to whatever the Tories end up with. So Starmer didn't lie? He simply immediately realised the pledges he made were unwise once elected and u-turned on them? Who the hell are you trying to kid here? lol.. It's laughable and pathetic. Some of us knew he was lying to us at the time. The people who were backing him were evidence enough of that. If you think he meant it and wasn't lying, curious how he so quickly came to un-mean it isn't it? You are either a gullible fool or are trying to mistake the rest of us for such.  |
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Post by dodgydave on Nov 7, 2022 2:04:16 GMT
Corbyn actively spent 20 years speaking out against the EU, because it is a Capitalist organisation, not a Socialist one. The most obvious reason being his enthusiasm for state aid / subsidy, which is a no-no under EU rules.
He sat on the fence about Brexit because he was being kept in position as Labour leader by young Momentum members, who were overwhelming pro-Europe. I mean seriously, can you not the Labour MP trying to remove him twice, only for the membership to save him?
This was the tragedy of Corbyn, he was on the right side of the Brexit debate (in his heart), but he couldn't show it if he wanted to remain Labour leader. Some of his policies were bat shit crazy, stealing 10% of companies, leaving NATO, getting rid of nukes, free everything paid for by "asking the rich to pay a little extra" lol.
Starmer on the other hand is just like Johnson, switching his beliefs to match public opinion. I mean come on, how you can you do a full 180 and switch from supporting a Democratic Socialist manifesto to a Social Democratic one? Where do we start with his lies. How about covering up that Raynor was the source of the "Growlergate" story. Breaking his leadership pledges. "Mishearing" when he has been caught lying in parliament. Lying that Labour had called for tighter COVID restrictions. Watching from the sidelines as his MP repeat the £37b track and trace lie, the Hancock landlord lie, the £50b BoE bailout lie, nurse using foodbanks lie, voting against a pay rise for nurses lie... it goes on and on.
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 7, 2022 2:28:04 GMT
Yea but all them lies and yet stamer and the labour party still lead in the opinion polls to lead the next Government.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2022 4:39:36 GMT
Yea but all them lies and yet stamer and the labour party still lead in the opinion polls to lead the next Government. So that's alright then? And to hell with integrity and honesty? Besides which. Labour's large poll lead is very soft and based largely upon one effective policy only, namely not being the Tories. The flaw here is that in the longer term success for Labour is in the hands of the Tories and depends upon the latter continuing to be seen as hopelessly crap. If they begin to get their act together, Labour's poll lead will start shrinking dramatically because it is built on very little in policy terms |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2022 14:55:20 GMT
People didn't like the EU either and said so several times, it still doesn't stop people trying to sing its praises, not like you would do that of course. Sing the praises of the EU? People would need to dig their way through misleading information in order to do that. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2022 15:06:39 GMT
Would you please supply verbatim, comment date and evidence of Starmer's "utterly brazen lie or lies"? Fill your boots.. Sorry but I can't take that rambling idot seriously. Is that the best you can do? |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 7, 2022 15:09:24 GMT
Sorry but I can't take that rambling idot seriously. Is that the best you can do? And that is precisley why you wallow in your own ignorance, |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2022 15:13:02 GMT
Yea but all them lies and yet stamer and the labour party still lead in the opinion polls to lead the next Government. So that's alright then? And to hell with integrity and honesty? Besides which. Labour's large poll lead is very soft and based largely upon one effective policy only, namely not being the Tories. The flaw here is that in the longer term success for Labour is in the hands of the Tories and depends upon the latter continuing to be seen as hopelessly crap. If they begin to get their act together, Labour's poll lead will start shrinking dramatically because it is built on very little in policy terms Given the horrors of Boris' first months of covid, it seems to me that Tory voters don't have the nous not to vote Tory. A bit like the damage done by Thatcher who had to be ditched by her own party because the electorate were not bright enough to ditch her at the election. |
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