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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 29, 2023 12:13:44 GMT
China is now selling brand new quality EVs for $11 000 and cheap runabouts (shopping cars) for $5000.
The trend in their market is prices going down, not up. The reasons for this are some 20 years ago the government foresaw that the future of the car industry re global warming was inevitably EV, and that lithium batteries would be the power source. To be frank with you, it was not a hard thing to predict back then.
In this country government subsidy to industry invariably gets wasted, but has shown limited success in the past. We here argue about the pros and cons of it drawing on our own history and see it is not very effective. We do not stop to think that our historical experiences were not so much determined by the business logic of government funding, although there is much legitimate argument to make here, but on the intelligence of the government making the subsidy. Supposing there were a government with the industrial expertise of the chairmen of the top industrial corporations working in a competitive market and then see how it works in practice. The answer to this is we simply did not know because we have never seen a government in the UK anything like this. You see if we are comparing like with like in the management of state and private industry there is an argument that says state funding and management of it would win out in the marketplace. This is because these markets are global, so you have large scale national organisation, all the way from what education is taught in schools to the standards of EV chargers. If the master plan is all correctly thought through there is much efficiency that can be gained. For one thing industrial investments would be cheaper because you would have certainty that if you were going to make batteries that in 5 years time there would be x number of new cars needing them. Certainty in business means investment is tightly directed to where it can do the most good. The large scale organisation makes the country into a virtual company of that scale, and as it does you get the largest economy of scale you can do.
I will point out this is only beneficial in certain markets. Making simple things it could well be counterproductive, but with cars the supply chain is huge with millions of parts. It's these types of industry that most benefit from state intervention, and indeed this is why the EU built up a successful car industry in that its virtual company was the size of the EU, and naturally had a lot of clout. All the standardisation meant Country A could make part A which would definitely bolt onto part B made by country B. Not only that but a million other complicated technical specs would likewise work in harmony so nothing would blow up unexpectedly. It imposes order on potential chaos.
The problem now is the EU's car industry has a much larger competitor which has been trying to do what the EU were doing with cars and built it up almost on the quiet for some 20 years. Now the economies of scale say the EU's market is going to be destroyed. Here is a quick video summarising what I was saying above in relation to EVs and government policy. Yes they do have a standard charger socket. We don't even have that right now.
You can skip the video if you are allergic to facts.
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Post by Bentley on May 29, 2023 12:34:09 GMT
I’ve heard some pretty bad reports about Chinese EVs . They are basically shit .
The even worse news is that our car industry and our race to be carbon neutral will make Chinese cars the only ones available to buy in a few years ..imo.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 29, 2023 13:00:07 GMT
I’ve heard some pretty bad reports about Chinese EVs . They are basically shit . The even worse news is that our car industry and our race to be carbon neutral will make Chinese cars the only ones available to buy in a few years ..imo. It's the loser approach to write unfair reports in British motoring journals telling you they are shit when some in this country a $5 grand car is the difference between having a car and not having a car. As the video correctly points out the technology in China is more advanced. You get more bang for your bucks. You can even buy a cheep alternative Rolls. |
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Post by Bentley on May 29, 2023 13:10:15 GMT
I’ve heard some pretty bad reports about Chinese EVs . They are basically shit . The even worse news is that our car industry and our race to be carbon neutral will make Chinese cars the only ones available to buy in a few years ..imo. It's the loser approach to write unfair reports in British motoring journals telling you they are shit when some in this country a $5 grand car is the difference between having a car and not having a car. As the video correctly points out the technology in China is more advanced. You get more bang for your bucks. You can even buy a cheep alternative Rolls. You can buy a used car for £5k that works and a new car for £15k that doesn’t . If Chinese cars have a higher rate of problems or a lower build then it should be noted . The ‘ advanced’ economy of China is useless if it’s not reflected in its products ( EVs in this case ). |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 30, 2023 2:13:33 GMT
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Post by johnofgwent on May 30, 2023 7:35:31 GMT
I’ve heard some pretty bad reports about Chinese EVs . They are basically shit . The even worse news is that our car industry and our race to be carbon neutral will make Chinese cars the only ones available to buy in a few years ..imo. I don't need to ‘hear reports’ for two and a half years i programmed the entire in house IT for a factory owned by a chinese playboy. We made the various bits of metal trim for high end cars like range rovers. Our owners had us export some of these parts to his production line in the province next door to wuhan making the knockoffs. They look impressive from the outside but they are a different story inside. The Chinese can make cars very cheaply But so could Russia (the Lada) East Germany (The trebant) and Yugoslavia (whose marketing dept were so unimaginative they named the car after the country) |
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Post by patman post on May 30, 2023 7:59:20 GMT
Years ago, before the USSR collapsed, Niva, Skoda, and Wartburg, we’re among eastern bloc cars that built up faithful following in the UK and the West. They were subject to prejudice because of the British market’s wariness of foreign cars and limited advertising funds to ensure the motoring press covered them in depth.
These days, now home-owned car makers have almost disappeared, the Chinese car makers are on the UK market through existing brands — eg, Lotus, MG, Volvo and LDV commercials. The first three are supported by substantial promotion and are getting favourable reviews…
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Post by Dan Dare on May 30, 2023 8:23:00 GMT
Perhaps the first thing to be aware of is that Britain doesn't really have a car industry, the important decisions about investment and production are made at headquarters in India, France, Germany, Japan and, increasingly, China.
The British government has no role in this process except in the matter of providing financial incentives, bribes actually, to dissuade foreign owners from upping sticks and transferring production elsewhere. The latest instance being the 'victory' of the British government in out-bidding the Spanish in the bribe to its Indian owners to locate the JLR battery plant in Somerset, rather than in Spain.
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Post by johnofgwent on May 30, 2023 8:55:03 GMT
Perhaps the first thing to be aware of is that Britain doesn't really have a car industry, the important decisions about investment and production are made at headquarters in India, France, Germany, Japan and, increasingly, China. The British government has no role in this process…. I agree entirely. And it has been this way for a while. I can remember Rootes going under and with it the Hillman Avenger but i’m just picking one. Perhaps the low point for the UK was Alistair Darling’s vehicle scrappage scheme, which did nothing fir the ImUK except make insurance write off values aporoach what in the seventies would have been a pop rivet and underseal job Indeed the scrappage scheme highlighted everything that was / is wrong with the motor industry. The french had to be forced to mothball plants they’d just opened in former iron curtain countries to make cars using labour paid a fraction of french workers, the government making it plain this was a deal to improve the lot of the nation’s workers, not the nation’s carmaking share holders. The italians did what the italians always do, carry on making losses, the spanish ignored government threats and continued to oretend cars made in india were made in spain. The germans ramoed up their output, and the British ? They saw the price of used cars skyrocket as corporate sector ordered those French, German, Indian Spanish and Italian motors making money for dealers but fuck all else. Interestingly Suzuki imports came from India too. I wouldn’t have known were i not working on retail barcoding at the time i bought one and thought ‘that’s a strange number where the origin country code should be on the invoice’ |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 30, 2023 11:44:21 GMT
Perhaps the first thing to be aware of is that Britain doesn't really have a car industry, the important decisions about investment and production are made at headquarters in India, France, Germany, Japan and, increasingly, China. The British government has no role in this process…. I agree entirely. And it has been this way for a while. I can remember Rootes going under and with it the Hillman Avenger but i’m just picking one. Perhaps the low point for the UK was Alistair Darling’s vehicle scrappage scheme, which did nothing fir the ImUK except make insurance write off values aporoach what in the seventies would have been a pop rivet and underseal job Indeed the scrappage scheme highlighted everything that was / is wrong with the motor industry. The french had to be forced to mothball plants they’d just opened in former iron curtain countries to make cars using labour paid a fraction of french workers, the government making it plain this was a deal to improve the lot of the nation’s workers, not the nation’s carmaking share holders. The italians did what the italians always do, carry on making losses, the spanish ignored government threats and continued to oretend cars made in india were made in spain. The germans ramoed up their output, and the British ? They saw the price of used cars skyrocket as corporate sector ordered those French, German, Indian Spanish and Italian motors making money for dealers but fuck all else. Interestingly Suzuki imports came from India too. I wouldn’t have known were i not working on retail barcoding at the time i bought one and thought ‘that’s a strange number where the origin country code should be on the invoice’ You put down the winners though. China is winning this game big time. |
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Post by Dan Dare on May 30, 2023 12:52:44 GMT
Not in Europe they're not: Results year-to-date: Tesla Model Y - 72,487 Volvo XC40 (BEV + PHEV) - 20,975 Tesla Model 3 - 19,797 Volkswagen ID.3 - 17,366 Volkswagen ID.4 - 16,199 Audi Q4 e-tron - 15,410 Dacia Spring - 14,299 Fiat 500 electric - 13,712 Peugeot e-208 - 13,314 MG 4 - 12,783 Source |
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Post by patman post on May 30, 2023 12:57:19 GMT
Maruti Suzuki India Limited, is Suzuki's largest and most valuable subsidiary. Maruti Suzuki India Limited both manufactures and sells almost all Suzuki models. It exports to many countries.
Some earlier Dacia models were also made in India…
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 30, 2023 13:49:51 GMT
Not in Europe they're not: Results year-to-date: Tesla Model Y - 72,487 Volvo XC40 (BEV + PHEV) - 20,975 Tesla Model 3 - 19,797 Volkswagen ID.3 - 17,366 Volkswagen ID.4 - 16,199 Audi Q4 e-tron - 15,410 Dacia Spring - 14,299 Fiat 500 electric - 13,712 Peugeot e-208 - 13,314 MG 4 - 12,783 SourceI can't locate the total car production figures for China in a graph year on year, but here is the bar graph for EV.
The message is clear. Their production is increasing fast and ours is decreasing fast. Don't tell me that means we are winning. It means we are hallucinating.
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Post by Dan Dare on May 30, 2023 14:00:17 GMT
China can't be claimed to be winning when their vehicles don't have substantial market share in Europe. It's one thing to build cheap and cheerful cars for the home market behind a tariff wall it's another thing entirely to compete on a level playing field with manufacturers who design their vehicles for the European market.
In 2022 Chinese manufactured vehicles counted for just 1.4% of the European market, so they are a very long way off winning anything.
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Post by Pacifico on May 30, 2023 16:35:33 GMT
Currently Chinese vehicles simply are not good enough for the European market. They will get there in the end and become like the cheapo android phones that you get from China - something disposable that does the job but nobody would aspire to own.
EV's will become just another appliance that people use but have no attachment to and will end up in landfill after a few years.
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