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Post by Pacifico on May 30, 2023 17:13:09 GMT
Perhaps the first thing to be aware of is that Britain doesn't really have a car industry, the important decisions about investment and production are made at headquarters in India, France, Germany, Japan and, increasingly, China. The British government has no role in this process except in the matter of providing financial incentives, bribes actually, to dissuade foreign owners from upping sticks and transferring production elsewhere. The latest instance being the 'victory' of the British government in out-bidding the Spanish in the bribe to its Indian owners to locate the JLR battery plant in Somerset, rather than in Spain.You make it sound as though this is something specific to the UK.. The development by Automotive Cells Company, a joint-venture between Stellantis, Mercedes and TotalEnergies (LON:TTEF), involves total investment of 2 billion euros ($2.20 billion) - with the French state and local authorities providing nearly half.
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Post by sheepy on May 31, 2023 8:08:23 GMT
Eat cucumber sandwiches drink more cheap alcohol from the bar and see who comes up with the best cash offer, most likely.
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Post by Dan Dare on May 31, 2023 8:19:38 GMT
I think there is a difference between the bribes that the UK government is forced to hand out and those offered by countries in the EU.
Since Brexit there is no particular incentive anymore for foreign companies looking o expand in Europe to invest in the UK while the incentive to invest in the EU remains undiminished. So while the UK's 'incentives' smell a little of desperation these days the EU knows investment is going to come their way no matter what so it's just a matter of friendly competition between rivals. They know there will be more than enough to go round.
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Post by johnofgwent on May 31, 2023 10:54:03 GMT
You put down the winners though. China is winning this game big time. China’s playboy owner of the maker of cheap landrovers uses trim and body panels made in this country to create a body shell that looks like the real thing but the engines are sourced from Peugeot and the drive trains actually i dont know where they get them from. The overall product looks good but it sounds like a tractor and won’t pass our 2005 emission smoke standards never mind cat 5 / 6. I’ve no idea what the EVs they make look like. China may be winning in the chinese market but their chances of getting ahead of the game here with chinese imports is absolute zero. They may of course buy up european car plants just as they are buying / have bought ancillary component making companies across the EU and USA but that is just chinese money not chinese technology. The chinese playboy entrepreneurs doing this have that money because their entrepreneurs don't have to give a fuck about safety standards emission levels pollution levels employee health and safety or even consumer safety. It’s wonderful living inna country where the governing dictator loves you for your work infiltrating tbe west. Not so much when things go wrong though.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 31, 2023 11:43:42 GMT
Currently Chinese vehicles simply are not good enough for the European market. They will get there in the end and become like the cheapo android phones that you get from China - something disposable that does the job but nobody would aspire to own. EV's will become just another appliance that people use but have no attachment to and will end up in landfill after a few years. That's a lie. At the right price there will be people who want to have one. They are not all snobs like you.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 31, 2023 11:51:21 GMT
I think there is a difference between the bribes that the UK government is forced to hand out and those offered by countries in the EU. Since Brexit there is no particular incentive anymore for foreign companies looking o expand in Europe to invest in the UK while the incentive to invest in the EU remains undiminished. So while the UK's 'incentives' smell a little of desperation these days the EU knows investment is going to come their way no matter what so it's just a matter of friendly competition between rivals. They know there will be more than enough to go round. Quick fact for you. 91% of investment into private energy firms comes from UK government according to chap interviewed on Radio 4 the other day.
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Post by bancroft on May 31, 2023 12:00:49 GMT
I think there is a difference between the bribes that the UK government is forced to hand out and those offered by countries in the EU. Since Brexit there is no particular incentive anymore for foreign companies looking o expand in Europe to invest in the UK while the incentive to invest in the EU remains undiminished. So while the UK's 'incentives' smell a little of desperation these days the EU knows investment is going to come their way no matter what so it's just a matter of friendly competition between rivals. They know there will be more than enough to go round. Although I was pro-Brexit that was an acknowledged risk for me. We do have a SME industry repairing classic or even moderately damaged cars to make them road worthy and this seems vibrant yet not major employers. I personally would like to see tarifs on imported eletric consumer durables from Europe yet doubt that will happen. I do think we might do more in the military space to keeep productive capacity here for niche vehicles just to keep mechanical engineering knowlegde here.
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Post by Dan Dare on May 31, 2023 12:23:49 GMT
Currently Chinese vehicles simply are not good enough for the European market. They will get there in the end and become like the cheapo android phones that you get from China - something disposable that does the job but nobody would aspire to own. EV's will become just another appliance that people use but have no attachment to and will end up in landfill after a few years. That's a lie. At the right price there will be people who want to have one. They are not all snobs like you. The Chinese haven't adopted an aggressive pricing model for their EVs which are being sold in Europe. The current biggest seller, the MG4 competes in the same market segment as the VW ID.3. Comparing equivalent models and spec the MG4 is going for only a couple of thousand Euros less. That doesn't seem to be enough of a difference to encourage a European buyer to take a punt on an unknown Chinese make (even though it carries an MG badge).
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 31, 2023 12:41:34 GMT
That's a lie. At the right price there will be people who want to have one. They are not all snobs like you. The Chinese haven't adopted an aggressive pricing model for their EVs which are being sold in Europe. The current biggest seller, the MG4 competes in the same market segment as the VW ID.3. Comparing equivalent models and spec the MG4 is going for only a couple of thousand Euros less. That doesn't seem to be enough of a difference to encourage a European buyer to take a punt on an unknown Chinese make (even though it carries an MG badge). Yes I noticed that. They were selling a small runabout which after all the various taxation, cost in getting it here, dealer markup and government registration tends to cost about £30 grand. The EU regs on cars here are tough so that adds a lot to cost, especially if you are producing a low volume export model. Rather than go cheap on this car they went the other way and went for quality, so it ranked well amongst its competitors. One really clever thing was the computer in the car could steer a certain distance from the curb automatically with cameras and also if you fall asleep at the wheel the AI figures it out and wakes you up. I believe it is this sophisticated technology which will enable it to compete on quality. They will be making a big profit on such a car at the Chinese end but I think this is only a step in the overall strategy. Step one is gain consumer acceptance, step two is ramp up production and slash prices. If you do step two first you could easily get heat from the regulators who may slap large tariffs on you like the US did to the Japs and their cars, so you socially engineer the public to like them first, then if the regulators ban them/make them too expensive there would be public backlash. I mean in stage two they would have their own dealership network.
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Post by Pacifico on May 31, 2023 17:18:30 GMT
Currently Chinese vehicles simply are not good enough for the European market. They will get there in the end and become like the cheapo android phones that you get from China - something disposable that does the job but nobody would aspire to own. EV's will become just another appliance that people use but have no attachment to and will end up in landfill after a few years. That's a lie. At the right price there will be people who want to have one. They are not all snobs like you. Of course they will sell, there is always a market for cheap tat. Cheap Chinese android phones outsell quality androids and iphones - that doesn't make them better or any good, it just means they are filling a desire in the market for something cheap and cheerful. I can guarantee though that in 50 years you wont be going to a historic car rally and seeing lines of Chinese EV's - they will have been long junked.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 1, 2023 3:32:26 GMT
That's a lie. At the right price there will be people who want to have one. They are not all snobs like you. Of course they will sell, there is always a market for cheap tat. Cheap Chinese android phones outsell quality androids and iphones - that doesn't make them better or any good, it just means they are filling a desire in the market for something cheap and cheerful. I can guarantee though that in 50 years you wont be going to a historic car rally and seeing lines of Chinese EV's - they will have been long junked. Oh you will. Modern anti-corrosion treatments are far better than British Leyland and Co. EVs have very few moving parts, like jet engines compared to piston prop engines.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 1, 2023 14:26:49 GMT
I've got another video here which answers some of the questions about what China did and what it is currently doing. It turns out the EV programme started in 2000 with government initiatives to subside industry and in particular to strengthen R and D into the main technologies which are used in EV: the motor, the battery and the electronic control system that manages it. In addition it did similar things to the UK, where it increased the charging points, gave subsidy to buyers of new EVs (which is just finishing now) and various other concessions between local and national government. Where this programme executed in China showed really good results, the UK it did not and we have nothing to show for it. We do not have any British car brands selling to the mass market, where in China new mass market brands were created. The only British companies in the motor industry are for things like kit cars and racing, plus a few niche replica classical cars, more sold as ornaments than what you need to get to work.
Anyway, as I was saying earlier this chap is also saying that having started by supplying the domestic market, China will go looking for business in Europe and beyond. You can see the logic to this. The domestic market is easier by far with far less tedious regulation to stall you, but once you perfect your art you then scale up and drop prices. I think Evo are a brand which will do this and do it well. Their cars are very high spec, especially regarding safety. Safety is often used as a reason to act in a protectionist way, but with ultra safe Chinese cars they might shoot the less safe Europeans in the foot! Be careful what you preach as a government.
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Post by bancroft on Jun 1, 2023 16:08:54 GMT
You put down the winners though. China is winning this game big time. China’s playboy owner of the maker of cheap landrovers uses trim and body panels made in this country to create a body shell that looks like the real thing but the engines are sourced from Peugeot and the drive trains actually i dont know where they get them from. The overall product looks good but it sounds like a tractor and won’t pass our 2005 emission smoke standards never mind cat 5 / 6. I’ve no idea what the EVs they make look like. China may be winning in the chinese market but their chances of getting ahead of the game here with chinese imports is absolute zero. They may of course buy up european car plants just as they are buying / have bought ancillary component making companies across the EU and USA but that is just chinese money not chinese technology. The chinese playboy entrepreneurs doing this have that money because their entrepreneurs don't have to give a fuck about safety standards emission levels pollution levels employee health and safety or even consumer safety. It’s wonderful living inna country where the governing dictator loves you for your work infiltrating tbe west. Not so much when things go wrong though. Depending on the price they might be aimed not at the West yet rest of the world.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jun 2, 2023 6:54:37 GMT
China’s playboy owner of the maker of cheap landrovers uses trim and body panels made in this country to create a body shell that looks like the real thing but the engines are sourced from Peugeot and the drive trains actually i dont know where they get them from. The overall product looks good but it sounds like a tractor and won’t pass our 2005 emission smoke standards never mind cat 5 / 6. I’ve no idea what the EVs they make look like. China may be winning in the chinese market but their chances of getting ahead of the game here with chinese imports is absolute zero. They may of course buy up european car plants just as they are buying / have bought ancillary component making companies across the EU and USA but that is just chinese money not chinese technology. The chinese playboy entrepreneurs doing this have that money because their entrepreneurs don't have to give a fuck about safety standards emission levels pollution levels employee health and safety or even consumer safety. It’s wonderful living inna country where the governing dictator loves you for your work infiltrating tbe west. Not so much when things go wrong though. Depending on the price they might be aimed not at the West yet rest of the world. a good point. Many vehicles in other parts of the world would be quite illegal here mainly because some dumbass gives a shit about pedestrisns who walk into the road with their head so far up their phones it might as well be up their arse.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jun 4, 2023 15:16:25 GMT
I’ve heard some pretty bad reports about Chinese EVs . They are basically shit . The even worse news is that our car industry and our race to be carbon neutral will make Chinese cars the only ones available to buy in a few years ..imo. Here is a story for you about Ford EVs.
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