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Post by zanygame on Oct 29, 2022 6:32:16 GMT
Agreed, so ID cards aren't the answer. Which is what I already said  You said: "perhaps it is time to introduce ID requirements and police it a lot stricter. But there would be no point in doing that without overhauling Legal Aid." So how would overhauling legal aid help with people who disappear into the black economy? Which IS the reason ID cards wont work. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 29, 2022 6:59:21 GMT
Which is what I already said You said: "perhaps it is time to introduce ID requirements and police it a lot stricter. But there would be no point in doing that without overhauling Legal Aid." So how would overhauling legal aid help with people who disappear into the black economy? Which IS the reason ID cards wont work. For the simple reason that if you currently police the Black Economy a lot harder and find all these illegal workers, you are going to have exactly the same problem deporting them as we currently do with illegal immigrants. If we had ID cards and an inspector turns up at the local car wash and demands to see the workers ID cards and arrests those who do not have them - then immediately you are going to have a string of human rights lawyers on the case arguing that the poor old sops have a family, have a cat, are gay etc etc Which is why I said overhauling Legal Aid needs to be done before any significant policing of the Black Economy. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 29, 2022 7:59:42 GMT
You said: "perhaps it is time to introduce ID requirements and police it a lot stricter. But there would be no point in doing that without overhauling Legal Aid." So how would overhauling legal aid help with people who disappear into the black economy? Which IS the reason ID cards wont work. For the simple reason that if you currently police the Black Economy a lot harder and find all these illegal workers, you are going to have exactly the same problem deporting them as we currently do with illegal immigrants. If we had ID cards and an inspector turns up at the local car wash and demands to see the workers ID cards and arrests those who do not have them - then immediately you are going to have a string of human rights lawyers on the case arguing that the poor old sops have a family, have a cat, are gay etc etc Which is why I said overhauling Legal Aid needs to be done before any significant policing of the Black Economy. Ok I get you now. You think the reason police don't seek those working in the black market is because they feel the prosecution system will fail them. I would have to point out that human rights lawyers have nothing to do with crimes committed in the UK, only if you tried to deport the said individuals might they get involved. The police could still arrest and charge the individuals, even imprison the. Fine or shut down the businesses involved. You are assuming the answer is only deportation, but I say if it became apparent that black market work did not pay then the flood of Albanians would slow. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 29, 2022 10:54:34 GMT
For the simple reason that if you currently police the Black Economy a lot harder and find all these illegal workers, you are going to have exactly the same problem deporting them as we currently do with illegal immigrants. If we had ID cards and an inspector turns up at the local car wash and demands to see the workers ID cards and arrests those who do not have them - then immediately you are going to have a string of human rights lawyers on the case arguing that the poor old sops have a family, have a cat, are gay etc etc Which is why I said overhauling Legal Aid needs to be done before any significant policing of the Black Economy. Ok I get you now. You think the reason police don't seek those working in the black market is because they feel the prosecution system will fail them. I would have to point out that human rights lawyers have nothing to do with crimes committed in the UK, only if you tried to deport the said individuals might they get involved. The police could still arrest and charge the individuals, even imprison the. Fine or shut down the businesses involved. You are assuming the answer is only deportation, but I say if it became apparent that black market work did not pay then the flood of Albanians would slow. If you do not deport them what are you going to do with them when they get out of prison - give them a NI number and a Council House? Cant see that being a massive disincentive to illegally entering the country. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 29, 2022 18:16:31 GMT
Ok I get you now. You think the reason police don't seek those working in the black market is because they feel the prosecution system will fail them. I would have to point out that human rights lawyers have nothing to do with crimes committed in the UK, only if you tried to deport the said individuals might they get involved. The police could still arrest and charge the individuals, even imprison the. Fine or shut down the businesses involved. You are assuming the answer is only deportation, but I say if it became apparent that black market work did not pay then the flood of Albanians would slow. If you do not deport them what are you going to do with them when they get out of prison - give them a NI number and a Council House? Cant see that being a massive disincentive to illegally entering the country. Deport them, but that's no different to any illegal immigrant. And no different regarding human rights lawyers before or after they have worked in the black market. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 29, 2022 21:27:54 GMT
If you do not deport them what are you going to do with them when they get out of prison - give them a NI number and a Council House? Cant see that being a massive disincentive to illegally entering the country. , but that's no different to any illegal immigrant. And no different regarding human rights lawyers before or after they have worked in the black market. Oh do come off it - we cannot deport Jamaican Yardies who have been convicted of drug trafficking and murder thanks to their 'Human rights' - so what chance would we have of deporting an Albanian whose only crime is entering the country illegally?.. Be sensible for once. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 30, 2022 7:06:28 GMT
Deport them, but that's no different to any illegal immigrant. And no different regarding human rights lawyers before or after they have worked in the black market. Oh do come off it - we cannot deport Jamaican Yardies who have been convicted of drug trafficking and murder thanks to their 'Human rights' - so what chance would we have of deporting an Albanian whose only crime is entering the country illegally?.. Be sensible for once. Why can't we deport them. You see, I think you'll find you Jamaican Yardies are not Jamaican. They are British Yardies with British passports and that Jamaica does not wish to be our penal colony. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 30, 2022 7:44:54 GMT
Oh do come off it - we cannot deport Jamaican Yardies who have been convicted of drug trafficking and murder thanks to their 'Human rights' - so what chance would we have of deporting an Albanian whose only crime is entering the country illegally?.. Be sensible for once.
You see, I think you'll find you Jamaican Yardies are not Jamaican. They are British Yardies with British passports and that Jamaica does not wish to be our penal colony. As I said - Human Rights. Guy born in Jamaica, not a UK citizen and we cannot deport him. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 30, 2022 8:03:49 GMT
Why can't we deport them.
You see, I think you'll find you Jamaican Yardies are not Jamaican. They are British Yardies with British passports and that Jamaica does not wish to be our penal colony. As I said - Human Rights. Guy born in Jamaica, not a UK citizen and we cannot deport him. That has absolutely nothing to do with human rights. You cannot force UK convicts onto foreign countries, just because they were born there. When they were born they were not a criminal. In the case you cite. The man had lived in the UK since he was 4 years old and had been granted indefinite right to remain. He was not a Jamaican Yardie when aged 4 years. He became a criminal while living in the UK. So he is our problem. The fact our government tried to use the fact that aged 18 he had not completed the application as an excuse to hand the problem to Jamaica is disgusting and typical of the un-respectful place we have become. That human rights lawyers had to find their own loop hole to make us take responsibility for our own criminals is very sad. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 30, 2022 8:07:18 GMT
As I said - Human Rights. Guy born in Jamaica, not a UK citizen and we cannot deport him. That has absolutely nothing to do with human rights. You cannot force UK convicts onto foreign countries, just because they were born there .
When they were born they were not a criminal.
But they would know the difference between right and wrong, would they not? |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 30, 2022 8:14:34 GMT
That has absolutely nothing to do with human rights. You cannot force UK convicts onto foreign countries, just because they were born there .
When they were born they were not a criminal.
But they would know the difference between right and wrong, would they not? What aged 4 years? When he came to Britain? |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 30, 2022 8:18:17 GMT
But they would know the difference between right and wrong, would they not? What aged 4 years? When he came to Britain? Of course they would, most youngsters know what is right and what is wrong from a very early age. So are you stating they are sub-human? |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 30, 2022 8:18:57 GMT
As I said - Human Rights. Guy born in Jamaica, not a UK citizen and we cannot deport him. That has absolutely nothing to do with human rights. You cannot force UK convicts onto foreign countries, just because they were born there. When they were born they were not a criminal. In the case you cite. The man had lived in the UK since he was 4 years old and had been granted indefinite right to remain. He was not a Jamaican Yardie when aged 4 years. He became a criminal while living in the UK. So he is our problem. The fact our government tried to use the fact that aged 18 he had not completed the application as an excuse to hand the problem to Jamaica is disgusting and typical of the un-respectful place we have become. That human rights lawyers had to find their own loop hole to make us take responsibility for our own criminals is very sad. The guy was a Jamaican citizen - we have no liability to look after Jamaican citizens. With regards to human rights - the Jude cited the relevant Human Rights Law - did you actually read the link? And Indefinite Leave to Remain status does not mean you cannot be deported - you can if you break the Law. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 30, 2022 8:19:53 GMT
For the simple reason that if you currently police the Black Economy a lot harder and find all these illegal workers, you are going to have exactly the same problem deporting them as we currently do with illegal immigrants. If we had ID cards and an inspector turns up at the local car wash and demands to see the workers ID cards and arrests those who do not have them - then immediately you are going to have a string of human rights lawyers on the case arguing that the poor old sops have a family, have a cat, are gay etc etc Which is why I said overhauling Legal Aid needs to be done before any significant policing of the Black Economy. Ok I get you now. You think the reason police don't seek those working in the black market is because they feel the prosecution system will fail them. I would have to point out that human rights lawyers have nothing to do with crimes committed in the UK, only if you tried to deport the said individuals might they get involved. The police could still arrest and charge the individuals, even imprison the. Fine or shut down the businesses involved. You are assuming the answer is only deportation, but I say if it became apparent that black market work did not pay then the flood of Albanians would slow. I think you will find it is not the responsibility of the police to monitor people working in the black market it's the duty of the Immigration Enforcement department (IE). It used to be the Border Force but they had to call in the police since they had no powers of arrest, IE does have the power of arrest. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2022 8:20:23 GMT
That has absolutely nothing to do with human rights. You cannot force UK convicts onto foreign countries, just because they were born there. When they were born they were not a criminal. Of course it is a matter of 'human rights' They have a right to come here based on their human rights, we have no right to refuse them based on their human rights, we have no ability to get eject them, once again based on their human rights. The entire 'dump criminals into the UK population regardless of the views of the UK people' arrangement is rationalised at every step with the 'human rights' of the people involved. Little mention is made of the human rights of UK residents though |
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