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Post by Orac on Oct 26, 2022 7:59:31 GMT
Tax also effects all your competitors - everyone puts their price up and the total market contracts. Less production, less trade, less goods Yep. Though usually business try to adsorb the tax as the price they are charging is already the optimum. The tax changes where that optimal is - likely some producers will find no new optimal and go out of business or engage in something else. Production lowers, scarcity increases - - > prices rise. Not sure why you are arguing the toss here. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 26, 2022 8:06:02 GMT
Totally irrelevant. The almighty illegal immigrant cock-up in Europe is entirely the fault of the EU. I say again, every single illegal who lands on an English beach came from the 'safe' EU state of France. (IIRC) With most illegal / asylum seekers initially landing in either Greece or Italy it was firstly the case that all European countries had a responsibility to accept them, not just EU countries, secondly, it was not remotely possible or acceptable to contain all migrants in the area where they landed. So naturally the burden was, as it should have been, shared by all EU countries, as well as non-EU countries. IMO, your position on this is seriously flawed. But you're not trying to persuade a reasonable man. You are trying to persuade a man who's attitude is stuff the foreigners, but then wonders why the foreigners say stuff you. The failure to understand that you can't shut the world out is staggering. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 26, 2022 8:07:32 GMT
could i have a link or evidence to that please? Yes, but it might take a little time as Google seems more interested in adverts these days. And only a few days ago I Googled for information from the late 1990s and was repeatedly given information from 2019 to 2022. So I will provide it later today. I've published the open letter from the EU several times, he doesn't read it. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 26, 2022 8:10:29 GMT
Totally irrelevant. The almighty illegal immigrant cock-up in Europe is entirely the fault of the EU. I say again, every single illegal who lands on an English beach came from the 'safe' EU state of France. (IIRC) With most illegal / asylum seekers initially landing in either Greece or Italy it was firstly the case that all European countries had a responsibility to accept them, not just EU countries, secondly, it was not remotely possible or acceptable to contain all migrants in the area where they landed. So naturally the burden was, as it should have been, shared by all EU countries, as well as non-EU countries. IMO, your position on this is seriously flawed. You appear to be unaware that the UK is no longer an EU state or governed from Belgium. The EU, not the UK, invited millions of economic migrants to Europe, this insane policy continues to cause huge problems across the bloc which is why the EU are deporting more illegals than ever and is also the reason the EU/Macron look the other way as tens of thousands of illegals pay criminals in the safe EU state of France to get them to an English beach. As an aside, are you aware that since 2007 England has been the most densely populated country in Europe? Our roads are overcrowded, hospitals and schools are at breaking point, there isn't enough housing and we have a massive welfare budget of £244 billion. In short, we are full. I sincerely hope this nasty far right Tory government start deporting illegals en masse, to where? I care not a jot. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 26, 2022 8:13:16 GMT
(IIRC) With most illegal / asylum seekers initially landing in either Greece or Italy it was firstly the case that all European countries had a responsibility to accept them, not just EU countries, secondly, it was not remotely possible or acceptable to contain all migrants in the area where they landed. So naturally the burden was, as it should have been, shared by all EU countries, as well as non-EU countries. IMO, your position on this is seriously flawed. But you're not trying to persuade a reasonable man. You are trying to persuade a man who's attitude is stuff the foreigners, but then wonders why the foreigners say stuff you. The failure to understand that you can't shut the world out is staggering. I used to be sympathetic. Patience has run out. France is a safe state, anyone landing on an English beach from the 'safe' EU state of France is an illegal and should be treated accordingly. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 26, 2022 8:15:26 GMT
Yep. Though usually business try to adsorb the tax as the price they are charging is already the optimum. The tax changes where that optimal is - likely some producers will find no new optimal and go out of business or engage in something else. Production lowers, scarcity increases - - > prices rise. Not sure why you are arguing the toss here. I'm arguing the toss because I'm trying to convince those not in business that businesses cannot 'Just bung the price up and pass it on to the consumer' Tax changes have the effect of forcing your prices up out of the optimal. If the optimal was a higher price, believe me business would already be charging it. So the effect is either; Put prices up and except lower sales. Absorb the tax increase and maintain sales. Automate and cut more staff and costs. For clarity I am not talking about profit based taxes here, but those you have to pay even when trading at a loss. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 26, 2022 8:18:21 GMT
But you're not trying to persuade a reasonable man. You are trying to persuade a man who's attitude is stuff the foreigners, but then wonders why the foreigners say stuff you. The failure to understand that you can't shut the world out is staggering. I used to be sympathetic. Patience has run out. France is a safe state, anyone landing on an English beach from the 'safe' EU state of France is an illegal and should be treated accordingly. Illegals in this country (AS I HAVE POINTED OUT TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES) make up a tiny proportion of immigration, so "We are full" is not a good argument. If you think we are full, turn on your own Tory government and ask them why immigration has not fallen since we no longer have FoM. |
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Post by dappy on Oct 26, 2022 8:20:21 GMT
Red
You have allowed yourself to become radicalised by restricting your news intake to sources feeding you propaganda. As you disappear further and further down your rabbit hole you become less and less coherent and rational. Reality is no longer part of your world. Try to pull yourself out of it before it consumes you totally, mate.
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Post by zanygame on Oct 26, 2022 8:26:59 GMT
Red You have allowed yourself to become radicalised by restricting your news intake to sources feeding you propaganda. As you disappear further and further down your rabbit hole you become less and less coherent and rational. Reality is no longer part of your world. Try to pull yourself out of it before it consumes you totally, mate. In Reds defence. A:The EU decided that the millions arriving at their borders were all to be considered refugees. B:They then decided that the countries they landed in could not cope with them all and it would be fairer to share the burden among all the member states. H ad 'A' not have happened, then 'B' would not be a problem. The EU including the UK decided this. But in farness to him Red and millions like him were not asked. |
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Post by dappy on Oct 26, 2022 8:28:53 GMT
This is not fully true Zany. Just as you would have increased prices to consumers if you felt your business would be more profitable by doing so, similarly you would have automated and cut staff and costs already if you felt that would not impact your sales. Conversely it may be possible to increase your prices without impacting sales in response to cost rises if your competitors do likewise. The country has to increase its tax revenues or suffer ever declining public services. It is right IMHO that some of pain is suffered by business as well as ordinary working people. |
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Post by dappy on Oct 26, 2022 8:30:20 GMT
Red You have allowed yourself to become radicalised by restricting your news intake to sources feeding you propaganda. As you disappear further and further down your rabbit hole you become less and less coherent and rational. Reality is no longer part of your world. Try to pull yourself out of it before it consumes you totally, mate. In Reds defence. A:The EU decided that the millions arriving at their borders were all to be considered refugees. B:They then decided that the countries they landed in could not cope with them all and it would be fairer to share the burden among all the member states. H ad 'A' not have happened, then 'B' would not be a problem. The EU including the UK decided this. But in farness to him Red and millions like him were not asked. That simply isnt true Zany. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 26, 2022 8:32:03 GMT
I used to be sympathetic. Patience has run out. France is a safe state, anyone landing on an English beach from the 'safe' EU state of France is an illegal and should be treated accordingly. Illegals in this country (AS I HAVE POINTED OUT TO YOU SEVERAL TIMES) make up a tiny proportion of immigration, so "We are full" is not a good argument. If you think we are full, turn on your own Tory government and ask them why immigration has not fallen since we no longer have FoM. The government claim the hotel bill for illegals is £5 billion a year. I have no idea whether than includes the free mobile phones and pocket money they get, but one thing is for sure, if the government say the bill is £5 billion you can bet the shirt on your back it's a damned sight more. Over the past four years 75,000 illegals landed on English beaches from the 'safe' EU state of France, again that's a government figure so it will be safe to assume 75,000 is an absolute minimum, but for arguments sake let's assume that fig is accurate [Not including 30,000 illegals who are expected to land on English beaches this year] and given we have a housing crisis, how long do you think these illegals will be living at taxpayers expense in hotels, during this cost of living crisis? You outraged lefties need a reality check. This country is full. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 26, 2022 8:36:12 GMT
I say again, every single illegal who lands on an English beach came from the 'safe' EU state of France. And, as I've said before: We should pursue a legal remedy vs the EU since they are not complying with their own immigration laws by allowing illegals into the EU in the first place. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 26, 2022 8:39:42 GMT
I say again, every single illegal who lands on an English beach came from the 'safe' EU state of France. And, as I've said before: We should pursue a legal remedy vs the EU since they are not complying with their own immigration laws by allowing illegals into the EU in the first place.Steady on now mate. Think of the health of the eu lovers they will have a heart attack if you tell them the truth about their beloved eu. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 26, 2022 8:57:28 GMT
This is not fully true Zany. A....Just as you would have increased prices to consumers if you felt your business would be more profitable by doing so, B...similarly you would have automated and cut staff and costs already if you felt that would not impact your sales. Conversely it may be possible to increase your prices without impacting sales in response to cost rises if your competitors do likewise. The country has to increase its tax revenues or suffer ever declining public services. It is right IMHO that some of pain is suffered by business as well as ordinary working people. A, we already have. B, There is a balance here between, Capital cost, quality of service and risk. I know because the current wage inflation forced that decision to the top of the pile, whereas before the current crises it was only in the background. As I stated, I can increase my prices if my competitors do so, but not if my public decide not to buy from them either. By example: If all companies decided to double the price of their dishwashers, competition would not effect them, but the number of dishwashers sold would still fall overall, meaning every company would lose out. I would be happy with that if those increases were on profits. Just as you would want any personal taxes to be based on ability to pay. I have stated several time on here that I am happy to pay more tax, I have got past that tipping point, but many small traders already pay 60 or 70% of their turnover to the government in Business rates, NI and VAT. They are the silent milk cows, they have no vote for themselves, they are not big enough to lobby directly and the public think they're all filthy rich. |
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