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Post by zanygame on Apr 29, 2023 17:33:10 GMT
Then don't compare it to a health system that costs 10% more. See if you can work out what you are saying. I doubt it makes sense to anyone else. Its probably above you. But I'll ignore you again as you have nothing to add to the conversation. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 29, 2023 21:27:05 GMT
We spend a larger proportion of GDP than Australia, Austria, Belgium or Holland - certainly for that sort of outlay we should expect better results. France is suddenly out of the discussion. Australia spends an average of £6380.00 per patient. Nearly double the NHS I can't be bothered to check the rest you just keep making it up and lying. I'm using the latest figures from the OECD - not some anonymous geezer on the internet with a chip on their shoulder. In 2020 the UK spent 12% GDP - Australia 10.6%, Austria 11.5%, 11.1% and Holland 11.1%. So I suggest you do some homework before making yourself look a fool by accusing others of lying. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2023 23:29:46 GMT
The state of OUR NHS was a factor in Tony Blair's landslide victory in 1997, and I belive it will be again in the general election of 2024.
Let us not be fooled by the current excuses which the government are attempting to sell to the British people - that it is all due to the Covid 19 pandemic. Our NHS was deteriorating BEFORE anyone had ever heard of Covid19, and that is an indisputable fact.
The other ridiculous excuses - staff are unproductive or inefficient <- this is an insult, and it is also not true, for every procedure the NHS carries out, the private sector (Private Health) cannot do it cheaper.
It is plainly NOT ACCEPTABLE that people in this country are dying because of ambulance response times - but they are.
It is not acceptable that since the Tories came to power, waiting times to see a GP have gone from 2 or 3 days to 2 or 3 weeks.
THe ONLY way to rescue our NHS is to get the Tories OUT
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 30, 2023 6:52:38 GMT
The state of OUR NHS was a factor in Tony Blair's landslide victory in 1997, and I belive it will be again in the general election of 2024. Let us not be fooled by the current excuses which the government are attempting to sell to the British people - that it is all due to the Covid 19 pandemic. Our NHS was deteriorating BEFORE anyone had ever heard of Covid19, and that is an indisputable fact. The other ridiculous excuses - staff are unproductive or inefficient <- this is an insult, and it is also not true, for every procedure the NHS carries out, the private sector (Private Health) cannot do it cheaper.
Funnily enough, when Blair pumped all the extra money into the NHS during his administration productivity actually fell. So if Labour again decide to throw a ton of money at the NHS be prepared to see it even more unproductive than it is now..  |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 7:54:03 GMT
France is suddenly out of the discussion. Australia spends an average of £6380.00 per patient. Nearly double the NHS I can't be bothered to check the rest you just keep making it up and lying. I'm using the latest figures from the OECD - not some anonymous geezer on the internet with a chip on their shoulder. In 2020 the UK spent 12% GDP - Australia 10.6%, Austria 11.5%, 11.1% and Holland 11.1%. So I suggest you do some homework before making yourself look a fool by accusing others of lying. How is a percentage of GDP an accurate measure in this case. Its far more accurate to use spending per patient. (Which is why I used it) Cost percent of GDP doesn't allow for what is included within the health budget. For instance Australia's Medicare covers. Medicare covers all of the cost of public hospital services. It also covers some or all of the costs of other health services. These can include services provided by GPs and medical specialists. They can also include physiotherapy, community nurses and basic dental services for
And Private for: Health services not covered by Medicare — such as dental, physiotherapy and optical services. The Government provides a means-tested rebate to help you with the cost of your private health insurance. So not like for like. Which bits of our NHS would you like privatised? |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 8:06:56 GMT
The state of OUR NHS was a factor in Tony Blair's landslide victory in 1997, and I belive it will be again in the general election of 2024. Let us not be fooled by the current excuses which the government are attempting to sell to the British people - that it is all due to the Covid 19 pandemic. Our NHS was deteriorating BEFORE anyone had ever heard of Covid19, and that is an indisputable fact. The other ridiculous excuses - staff are unproductive or inefficient <- this is an insult, and it is also not true, for every procedure the NHS carries out, the private sector (Private Health) cannot do it cheaper. It is plainly NOT ACCEPTABLE that people in this country are dying because of ambulance response times - but they are. It is not acceptable that since the Tories came to power, waiting times to see a GP have gone from 2 or 3 days to 2 or 3 weeks. THe ONLY way to rescue our NHS is to get the Tories OUT Yes, they almost succeeded this time in persuading the public that a public health care system in inefficient and badly run. They try the same trick everytime they get into power. Starve it of funds, see it fall apart, tell the same story, privatise, shove the bills back up, grab the profits. Just as they did with the public water services. Only the NHS is the really big prize. |
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Post by sandypine on Apr 30, 2023 9:22:16 GMT
The state of OUR NHS was a factor in Tony Blair's landslide victory in 1997, and I belive it will be again in the general election of 2024. Let us not be fooled by the current excuses which the government are attempting to sell to the British people - that it is all due to the Covid 19 pandemic. Our NHS was deteriorating BEFORE anyone had ever heard of Covid19, and that is an indisputable fact. The other ridiculous excuses - staff are unproductive or inefficient <- this is an insult, and it is also not true, for every procedure the NHS carries out, the private sector (Private Health) cannot do it cheaper. It is plainly NOT ACCEPTABLE that people in this country are dying because of ambulance response times - but they are. It is not acceptable that since the Tories came to power, waiting times to see a GP have gone from 2 or 3 days to 2 or 3 weeks. THe ONLY way to rescue our NHS is to get the Tories OUT Yes, they almost succeeded this time in persuading the public that a public health care system in inefficient and badly run. They try the same trick everytime they get into power. Starve it of funds, see it fall apart, tell the same story, privatise, shove the bills back up, grab the profits. Just as they did with the public water services. Only the NHS is the really big prize. Is that a conspiracy theory? That it is a deliberate hidden policy by the Tories to make the health service inefficient and badly run through starving of funds so that it can eventually be privatised. Or could it be that in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration. |
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Post by sheepy on Apr 30, 2023 9:44:19 GMT
I will tell you what I think, the nurses are about to be put in a horrible catch 22 situation.
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 9:50:34 GMT
Yes, they almost succeeded this time in persuading the public that a public health care system in inefficient and badly run. They try the same trick everytime they get into power. Starve it of funds, see it fall apart, tell the same story, privatise, shove the bills back up, grab the profits. Just as they did with the public water services. Only the NHS is the really big prize. Is that a conspiracy theory? That it is a deliberate hidden policy by the Tories to make the health service inefficient and badly run through starving of funds so that it can eventually be privatised. Or could it be that in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration. Its more an observation. Conspiracy theories rely entirely on the non believer proving them wrong. So my evidence. The water companies. Funds fall steadily behind demand and inflation, Tories sell the idea that (in your own words) in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration.They persuade the public on this and privatise them. And then a year later they increase levies by a staggering 20%. So in order for the Tories to prove that "in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration." They would need to stop starving the NHS of funds, return it to the same funding as the countries they compare it to, then see if it works despite its size. Or they could look historically to when it was funded at the same level as its contemporaries and judge the outcomes and patient satisfaction. |
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Post by wapentake on Apr 30, 2023 9:59:06 GMT
Is that a conspiracy theory? That it is a deliberate hidden policy by the Tories to make the health service inefficient and badly run through starving of funds so that it can eventually be privatised. Or could it be that in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration. Its more an observation. Conspiracy theories rely entirely on the non believer proving them wrong. So my evidence. The water companies. Funds fall steadily behind demand and inflation, Tories sell the idea that (in your own words) in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration.They persuade the public on this and privatise them. And then a year later they increase levies by a staggering 20%. So in order for the Tories to prove that "in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration." They would need to stop starving the NHS of funds, return it to the same funding as the countries they compare it to, then see if it works despite its size. Or they could look historically to when it was funded at the same level as its contemporaries and judge the outcomes and patient satisfaction. I would agree with some qualifications,new labour was as culpable as any I believe if a public health service is to be successful in this country it needs to be taken away from direct interference of the govt in power. It is my opinion that part of the problem is the endless interference of the two main parties,I would see some cross party body run it |
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Post by Toreador on Apr 30, 2023 10:08:57 GMT
I'm using the latest figures from the OECD - not some anonymous geezer on the internet with a chip on their shoulder. In 2020 the UK spent 12% GDP - Australia 10.6%, Austria 11.5%, 11.1% and Holland 11.1%. So I suggest you do some homework before making yourself look a fool by accusing others of lying. How is a percentage of GDP an accurate measure in this case. Its far more accurate to use spending per patient. (Which is why I used it)Cost percent of GDP doesn't allow for what is included within the health budget. For instance Australia's Medicare covers. Medicare covers all of the cost of public hospital services. It also covers some or all of the costs of other health services. These can include services provided by GPs and medical specialists. They can also include physiotherapy, community nurses and basic dental services for
And Private for: Health services not covered by Medicare — such as dental, physiotherapy and optical services. The Government provides a means-tested rebate to help you with the cost of your private health insurance. So not like for like. Which bits of our NHS would you like privatised? How does that work then? Do the calculations use the total sum of money divided by the total number of patients treated or does it subtract the money used for non clinical purposes (admin etc) then do the sums? |
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Post by Toreador on Apr 30, 2023 10:11:21 GMT
Its more an observation. Conspiracy theories rely entirely on the non believer proving them wrong. So my evidence. The water companies. Funds fall steadily behind demand and inflation, Tories sell the idea that (in your own words) in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration.They persuade the public on this and privatise them. And then a year later they increase levies by a staggering 20%. So in order for the Tories to prove that "in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration." They would need to stop starving the NHS of funds, return it to the same funding as the countries they compare it to, then see if it works despite its size. Or they could look historically to when it was funded at the same level as its contemporaries and judge the outcomes and patient satisfaction. I would agree with some qualifications,new labour was as culpable as any I believe if a public health service is to be successful in this country it needs to be taken away from direct interference of the govt in power. It is my opinion that part of the problem is the endless interference of the two main parties, I would see some cross party body run itNo party involved would be a better idea, not even in the choice of a committee membership.. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 30, 2023 10:27:54 GMT
I'm using the latest figures from the OECD - not some anonymous geezer on the internet with a chip on their shoulder. In 2020 the UK spent 12% GDP - Australia 10.6%, Austria 11.5%, 11.1% and Holland 11.1%. So I suggest you do some homework before making yourself look a fool by accusing others of lying.
You are free to use any measure you like - I prefer to use GDP as that is the measure used by the Kings Fund, Commonwealth Fund, Nuffield Trust, ONS and EU. But each to their own |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 10:53:29 GMT
zanygame Is that a conspiracy theory? That it is a deliberate hidden policy by the Tories to make the health service inefficient and badly run through starving of funds so that it can eventually be privatised. Or could it be that in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration.
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Nothing what so ever to do with management, but everything to do with a constant drive to stretch services as far as possible to save money, and the result been a poorer, unsafe service.
There are not enough ambulances - the evidence speaks for itself, I live in a relatively remote part of the country, but we do have an ambulance station, the next nearest been 20 miles away, yet time after time when someone dials 999, the ambulance comes from the station 20 miles away NOT the ambulance station around the corner .... WHY ?
This never used to happen, now its a regular occurence, putting peoples safety and peoples lives at risk
Cutting the numbers of staff on duty, cutting the numbers of available ambulances, a Real Terms cut in expenditure, this situation has got nothing to do with Covid, nothing to do with inefficiency, its a lack of funding, a lack of staff, a lack of sufficient numbers of ambulances to give safe cover.
It always happens under the Tories, our NHS is broken and needs fixing, it was the same in 1997
Things can only get better - kick the Tories out
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Post by sheepy on Apr 30, 2023 11:30:02 GMT
Things can only get better - kick the Tories out, the Westminster party madness is growing by the day I see.
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