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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 11:31:00 GMT
Pacifico I'm using the latest figures from the OECD - not some anonymous geezer on the internet with a chip on their shoulder.
In 2020 the UK spent 12% GDP - Australia 10.6%, Austria 11.5%, 11.1% and Holland 11.1%.
So I suggest you do some homework before making yourself look a fool by accusing others of lying.
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Depends on what each nations health spending actually pays for doesn't it ?
I would suggest that we instinctively know something has gone terribly wrong with our NHS since the Tories returned to power in 2010, and we also instinctively know that staff work incredibly hard, in fact so hard that many are leaving to go to places where, according to your figures, health spending is less than here.
We instinctively know something is broken, and its happened since 2010
Health spending in Australia for example does not include dentistry, it also does not include ambulance cover
The 12% of GDP in the UK spent on health, covers a much wider scope of provision than in either Australia, Austria, Holland or the United States where ambulance cover is a mixture of Private (For Profit), Voluntary, Charitable and public funded.
In the UK such things as Prescriptions are covered or partly covered by health spending, in most other countries they are not. In some countries eye care is not covered, in many countries Rehabilitaion and / or physiotherapy is not covered.
I repeat - We know something has gone wrong, and we know it has gone badly wrong since 2010
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Post by see2 on Apr 30, 2023 11:59:39 GMT
zanygame Is that a conspiracy theory? That it is a deliberate hidden policy by the Tories to make the health service inefficient and badly run through starving of funds so that it can eventually be privatised. Or could it be that in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration. ----------------------------------------------- Nothing what so ever to do with management, but everything to do with a constant drive to stretch services as far as possible to save money, and the result been a poorer, unsafe service. There are not enough ambulances - the evidence speaks for itself, I live in a relatively remote part of the country, but we do have an ambulance station, the next nearest been 20 miles away, yet time after time when someone dials 999, the ambulance comes from the station 20 miles away NOT the ambulance station around the corner .... WHY ? This never used to happen, now its a regular occurence, putting peoples safety and peoples lives at risk Cutting the numbers of staff on duty, cutting the numbers of available ambulances, a Real Terms cut in expenditure, this situation has got nothing to do with Covid, nothing to do with inefficiency, its a lack of funding, a lack of staff, a lack of sufficient numbers of ambulances to give safe cover. It always happens under the Tories, our NHS is broken and needs fixing, it was the same in 1997 Things can only get better - kick the Tories out Its the age old right-wing garbage and deception, supported by too many Tory voting morons. I'm sure many will remember the damage done to the NHS in the 1980s as Thatcher did her best to push more people into the private health sector. If the NHs could have been majority privatised and a majority private health service system, that was socially fair put in its place, she would have done it. In fact even if it wasn't socially fair, she would have done it. It seems reasonably logical to assume that IF a socially fair majority private health system was a viable option, it would have happened by now. But any such system would have winners and losers . It's time to stop whinging and do the right thing, fix the NHS. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 12:43:22 GMT
Its more an observation. Conspiracy theories rely entirely on the non believer proving them wrong. So my evidence. The water companies. Funds fall steadily behind demand and inflation, Tories sell the idea that (in your own words) in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration.They persuade the public on this and privatise them. And then a year later they increase levies by a staggering 20%. So in order for the Tories to prove that "in general management of large systems are incapable of acting efficiently irrespective of how much cash you throw at them by way of remuneration." They would need to stop starving the NHS of funds, return it to the same funding as the countries they compare it to, then see if it works despite its size. Or they could look historically to when it was funded at the same level as its contemporaries and judge the outcomes and patient satisfaction. I would agree with some qualifications,new labour was as culpable as any I believe if a public health service is to be successful in this country it needs to be taken away from direct interference of the govt in power. It is my opinion that part of the problem is the endless interference of the two main parties,I would see some cross party body run it I doubt many people would agree with you that the NHS was in a similar state as it is now, when New labour were in power. But I'll concede tat all governments interfere in the running of the health service. TBH I don't see how that's avoidable seeing as they have to set budgets using the tax payers money. Cross party wouldn't work as the residing party in government would have to find money from other projects to satisfy the calls for more in the NHS from the non elected parties. I suspect PR is probably the best solution as it is in most things government. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 12:45:43 GMT
How is a percentage of GDP an accurate measure in this case. Its far more accurate to use spending per patient. (Which is why I used it)Cost percent of GDP doesn't allow for what is included within the health budget. For instance Australia's Medicare covers. Medicare covers all of the cost of public hospital services. It also covers some or all of the costs of other health services. These can include services provided by GPs and medical specialists. They can also include physiotherapy, community nurses and basic dental services for
And Private for: Health services not covered by Medicare — such as dental, physiotherapy and optical services. The Government provides a means-tested rebate to help you with the cost of your private health insurance. So not like for like. Which bits of our NHS would you like privatised? How does that work then? Do the calculations use the total sum of money divided by the total number of patients treated or does it subtract the money used for non clinical purposes (admin etc) then do the sums? Good point. You would also need to look at the proportion of the money spent on each treatment that goes in management fees etc. Though historically the NHS has faired very well in the outcome to cost comparisons. |
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Post by wapentake on Apr 30, 2023 13:18:25 GMT
I would agree with some qualifications,new labour was as culpable as any I believe if a public health service is to be successful in this country it needs to be taken away from direct interference of the govt in power. It is my opinion that part of the problem is the endless interference of the two main parties,I would see some cross party body run it I doubt many people would agree with you that the NHS was in a similar state as it is now, when New labour were in power. But I'll concede tat all governments interfere in the running of the health service. TBH I don't see how that's avoidable seeing as they have to set budgets using the tax payers money. Cross party wouldn't work as the residing party in government would have to find money from other projects to satisfy the calls for more in the NHS from the non elected parties. I suspect PR is probably the best solution as it is in most things government. And I agree there should be a reform of voting and fptp anyway whilst many might not agree that’s ok but I still remember things like this www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/may/21/uk.election20015 |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 15:12:59 GMT
With reference to the video posted by wapentake
I distinctively remember the government at the time explaining to the British people how turning around the NHS was similar to turning around an Oil Tanker, firstly by stopping the vessel by going into reverse, which takes time, and then by actually turning around, and then setting off in the opposite direction.
The video is of the 2001 general election, but eventually the targets were met, and waiting lists were first of all stopped from rising, and then turned around, and then they fell by 100,000. Waiting times also fell significantly
But of course we got another Tory government in 2010, backed by the YELLOW Brigade, and as always, all the good work achieved soon went into decline again, until we reached today ... the Tories have once again wrecked our NHS.
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Post by sheepy on Apr 30, 2023 15:17:18 GMT
With reference to the video posted by wapentake
I distinctively remember the government at the time explaining to the British people how turning around the NHS was similar to turning around an Oil Tanker, firstly by stopping the vessel by going into reverse, which takes time, and then by actually turning around, and then setting off in the opposite direction. The video is of the 2001 general election, but eventually the targets were met, and waiting lists were first of all stopped from rising, and then turned around, and then they fell by 100,000. Waiting times also fell significantly But of course we got another Tory government in 2010, backed by the YELLOW Brigade, and as always, all the good work achieved soon went into decline again, until we reached today ... the Tories have once again wrecked our NHS. You are a bit late for the old NHS ploy Sid, they are starting to think like populists as we open eyes. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 15:36:49 GMT
I doubt many people would agree with you that the NHS was in a similar state as it is now, when New labour were in power. But I'll concede tat all governments interfere in the running of the health service. TBH I don't see how that's avoidable seeing as they have to set budgets using the tax payers money. Cross party wouldn't work as the residing party in government would have to find money from other projects to satisfy the calls for more in the NHS from the non elected parties. I suspect PR is probably the best solution as it is in most things government. And I agree there should be a reform of voting and fptp anyway whilst many might not agree that’s ok but I still remember things like this www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/may/21/uk.election20015I also remember this event, but don't forget this was in May 2001 only just after New Labour's promise to stay within Tory spending restraints for 3 years ended. Spending after that rose rapidly.  |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 15:37:57 GMT
With reference to the video posted by wapentake
I distinctively remember the government at the time explaining to the British people how turning around the NHS was similar to turning around an Oil Tanker, firstly by stopping the vessel by going into reverse, which takes time, and then by actually turning around, and then setting off in the opposite direction. The video is of the 2001 general election, but eventually the targets were met, and waiting lists were first of all stopped from rising, and then turned around, and then they fell by 100,000. Waiting times also fell significantly But of course we got another Tory government in 2010, backed by the YELLOW Brigade, and as always, all the good work achieved soon went into decline again, until we reached today ... the Tories have once again wrecked our NHS. Indeed, see my comment above |
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Post by wapentake on Apr 30, 2023 16:18:16 GMT
I also remember this event, but don't forget this was in May 2001 only just after New Labour's promise to stay within Tory spending restraints for 3 years ended. Spending after that rose rapidly. When I said new labour was as culpable as any for the state of the nhs I stand by that,what I didn’t say was the nhs under them was as bad as it is now but they surely shoulder a good proportion of the blame with the introduction of foundation trusts,pfi fiasco and more to where we are now. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 30, 2023 16:59:17 GMT
I also remember this event, but don't forget this was in May 2001 only just after New Labour's promise to stay within Tory spending restraints for 3 years ended. Spending after that rose rapidly. When I said new labour was as culpable as any for the state of the nhs I stand by that,what I didn’t say was the nhs under them was as bad as it is now but they surely shoulder a good proportion of the blame with the introduction of foundation trusts,pfi fiasco and more to where we are now. GP doctors contract?...that is certainly biting us now. |
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Post by Toreador on Apr 30, 2023 19:41:33 GMT
How does that work then? Do the calculations use the total sum of money divided by the total number of patients treated or does it subtract the money used for non clinical purposes (admin etc) then do the sums? Good point. You would also need to look at the proportion of the money spent on each treatment that goes in management fees etc. Though historically the NHS has faired very well in the outcome to cost comparisons. I don't need to do anything, I need only report my experiences and those of others, sorting out NHS problems is the duty of people who are well paid for failing, something they hear from me every time they ask me for a review. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 30, 2023 20:13:37 GMT
Good point. You would also need to look at the proportion of the money spent on each treatment that goes in management fees etc. Though historically the NHS has faired very well in the outcome to cost comparisons. I don't need to do anything, I need only report my experiences and those of others, sorting out NHS problems is the duty of people who are well paid for failing, something they hear from me every time they ask me for a review. Apologies. I didn't mean you personally. I meant anyone interested in finding out. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 30, 2023 21:43:07 GMT
It's funny but over the decades when Health spending, as a proportion of GDP, was below our European neighbours it was trotted out by supporters of the NHS as a reason for its poor performance - If only we brought our spending up to the European average they would cry, and then the NHS would be the envy of the world.
Well now it is up to the European average (still the NHS is not the envy of the world) and yet suddenly measuring health spending as a proportion of GDP is bunk.
What will the excuse be next time?
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Post by zanygame on May 1, 2023 6:50:48 GMT
It's funny but over the decades when Health spending, as a proportion of GDP, was below our European neighbours it was trotted out by supporters of the NHS as a reason for its poor performance - If only we brought our spending up to the European average they would cry, and then the NHS would be the envy of the world. Well now it is up to the European average (still the NHS is not the envy of the world) and yet suddenly measuring health spending as a proportion of GDP is bunk. What will the excuse be next time? Only by ignoring everything that has been pointed out to you, can you make such a statement. So I assume your argument has run out. |
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