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Post by Pacifico on Apr 25, 2023 16:38:51 GMT
The plan was to leave - we have left.. The terms on which we would leave were up for discussion and as the UK did not have total control over that outcome nobody could have said what the final deal would be. It's not the terms of leaving that should have been planned, it's the destination. You have to know what you want before you can negotiate. I'm not clear what this 'plan' would entail. Did you expect all the negotiation to have been done for the final deal (whether it be what we have now or EFTA, EEA etc etc) before we voted? |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 16:40:08 GMT
Yep. Hence Boris's "shit, we haven't got a plan".
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Post by Fairsociety on Apr 25, 2023 16:48:28 GMT
It's not the terms of leaving that should have been planned, it's the destination. You have to know what you want before you can negotiate. I'm not clear what this 'plan' would entail. Did you expect all the negotiation to have been done for the final deal (whether it be what we have now or EFTA, EEA etc etc) before we voted? And to think remainers had the audacity to accuse leave voters of not knowing what they were voting for.
And here we have a true remain crusader (andrew) who can't get to grips no matter how many times posters have gone out of their way to explain to him, the referendum boxes said ..
Leave
Remain
There was no in-between, or well if this happens, or that happens, or this plan, or that plan ...
It's like when you go in to a hospital for or life or death operation and you ask the surgeon 'will I live', the surgeon will respond 'I can't tell you' we will only know 'after' the operation if it was a success or not.
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 25, 2023 16:53:09 GMT
Yep. Hence Boris's "shit, we haven't got a plan". And how would that have worked in practice?. For example who would have negotiated this 'plan'? - because it certainly would not have been the Government as they were in favour of remaining. The official Leave campaign only was named 2 months before the vote. And if the negotiating was not going to be done by the Government what would persuade the EU to negotiate with a private citizen who had no official power or status? I don't think you have thought this through very well. |
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Post by jonksy on Apr 25, 2023 17:10:40 GMT
You lost sunshine FFS get over it and move on. As usual Jonksy fails to answer or even address the question. Why did so many people vote for something with no plan? The plans was we were going to leave your beloved EUSSR. But of course the remnants had different ideas sunshine. |
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Post by jonksy on Apr 25, 2023 17:12:44 GMT
I'm not clear what this 'plan' would entail. Did you expect all the negotiation to have been done for the final deal (whether it be what we have now or EFTA, EEA etc etc) before we voted? And to think remainers had the audacity to accuse leave voters of not knowing what they were voting for.
And here we have a true remain crusader (andrew) who can't get to grips no matter how many times posters have gone out of their way to explain to him, the referendum boxes said ..
Leave
Remain
There was no in-between, or well if this happens, or that happens, or this plan, or that plan ...
It's like when you go in to a hospital for or life or death operation and you ask the surgeon 'will I live', the surgeon will respond 'I can't tell you' we will only know 'after' the operation if it was a success or not.
They are rather pathetic mate. Its about time they faced up to the facts... |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 25, 2023 18:19:04 GMT
We all knew Boris is a bumbler and a selfish narcissist, but with enough professional politicians and civil servants behind the referendum vote, it was possible to leave.
And we have.
There was no alternative way of leaving presented by opposition parties.
As a result, they're still in the political wildnerness.
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 18:31:07 GMT
Yep. Hence Boris's "shit, we haven't got a plan". And how would that have worked in practice?. For example who would have negotiated this 'plan'? - because it certainly would not have been the Government as they were in favour of remaining. The official Leave campaign only was named 2 months before the vote. And if the negotiating was not going to be done by the Government what would persuade the EU to negotiate with a private citizen who had no official power or status? I don't think you have thought this through very well. I think you have it the wrong way round. The "plan" didn't need to be negotiated, only the leaving. If we knew where we were headed we wouldn't have had 3 years of the shit show. You're making it sound like the EU held all the cards when they didn't. As FS just said, they needed us more than we needed them. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 25, 2023 21:18:34 GMT
And how would that have worked in practice?. For example who would have negotiated this 'plan'? - because it certainly would not have been the Government as they were in favour of remaining. The official Leave campaign only was named 2 months before the vote. And if the negotiating was not going to be done by the Government what would persuade the EU to negotiate with a private citizen who had no official power or status? I don't think you have thought this through very well. I think you have it the wrong way round. The "plan" didn't need to be negotiated, only the leaving. If we knew where we were headed we wouldn't have had 3 years of the shit show. You're making it sound like the EU held all the cards when they didn't. As FS just said, they needed us more than we needed them. What does that mean? - leaving was achieved by implementing Article 50. And A50 states that after it has been invoked, negotiation on the final status will then commence. So what were you expecting would be negotiated before hand?. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 21:43:41 GMT
Nothing could be negotiated before A50 was triggered, I didn't say it should be. But I'm clear that we should have had a direction before we did do. Ideally there should have been a clear vision of what leave meant before the referendum.There wasn't. It was led by an egotistical politician who didn't believe in Brexit and didn't think he would win. Yet millions voted for it. So I return to my question, why did so many people vote for something with no plan?
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 25, 2023 21:53:04 GMT
Nothing could be negotiated before A50 was triggered, I didn't say it should be. But I'm clear that we should have had a direction before we did do. Ideally there should have been a clear vision of what leave meant before the referendum.There wasn't. It was led by an egotistical politician who didn't believe in Brexit and didn't think he would win. Yet millions voted for it. So I return to my question, why did so many people vote for something with no plan? If you are not talking about what the final status would be (that could only be concluded after negotiation) what is this 'plan' that you seek?. You seem to think that Johnson should have had a plan - but for what?. Were you expecting him to determine whether the UK had continued membership of the Single Market or Customs Union for example? |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 23:13:02 GMT
Yes, absolutely - it should have been clear what people were voting for. It was our choice to leave both the CU and SM, but that decision was actually taken by Theresa May afterwards. I'm unsure where the pivot towards the Pacific Trade began, but again if that was the vision then that should have been made clear. You can have the aim to go about any of these aims without beginning negotiations. In fact the negotiations probably would have gone smoother, how many times did the EU say that Britain didn't know what it wanted? The decision to leave the SM and CU wasn't made until January 2017: www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/02/dont-be-misled-leaving-the-single-market-and-customs-union-was-a-tory-decisionThis was a full 6 months after the referendum. |
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Post by buccaneer on Apr 26, 2023 1:11:25 GMT
Yes, absolutely - it should have been clear what people were voting for. It was our choice to leave both the CU and SM, but that decision was actually taken by Theresa May afterwards. I'm unsure where the pivot towards the Pacific Trade began, but again if that was the vision then that should have been made clear. You can have the aim to go about any of these aims without beginning negotiations. In fact the negotiations probably would have gone smoother, how many times did the EU say that Britain didn't know what it wanted? The decision to leave the SM and CU wasn't made until January 2017: www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/02/dont-be-misled-leaving-the-single-market-and-customs-union-was-a-tory-decisionThis was a full 6 months after the referendum. The plan for many of the people who voted to leave was return national democracy and independence back to the UK. Ultimately this was the plan. The plan was to be like the rest of the world, where nations and democracies run themselves. The plan was a return to the norm, not the status quo of the anomaly. The pivot outward towards the Pacific and anywhere else globally was inevitable once the UK had unchained itself from an inward looking EU zone. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 26, 2023 6:12:41 GMT
No it wasn't, it was a possible destination.
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Post by sheepy on Apr 26, 2023 6:29:25 GMT
No it wasn't, it was a possible destination. How things change, they were all remain just like you, now you have to show faux outrage that they were just like you, where the only plan was remain. |
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