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Post by Vinny on Apr 25, 2023 13:11:05 GMT
It's very old news, we were saying as much when it happened, do keep up. At the time you supported leaving. |
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Post by jonksy on Apr 25, 2023 13:16:07 GMT
Yes, I know that you were happy with the outcome, but my question was why did people vote for something with no plan? You lost sunshine FFS get over it and move on. |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 25, 2023 13:17:04 GMT
I voted to leave.
Leave was my plan, we left, and that is success in honouring a vote.
The new relationship outside it was always open to democratic debate.
Sadly instead of debating what the new relationship should be, the parties went to war over whether we should even leave at all and that undermined our negotiating position.
If you want closer ties, or or a looser relationship, as far as I'm concerned that should still be up for debate.
But what should not, at least for now, is a return to membership.
Once a generation has passed, i.e. 2036, yes, only 13 years to go before you get that vote.
And by then the EU's treaty should have changed, so we'll know if it means a more liberal, or a more authoritarian EU.
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Post by Fairsociety on Apr 25, 2023 13:21:42 GMT
I'm not surprised. In fact I've speculated it before. Boris was never a leaver. He was in it for himself. What surprises me more is that so many people voted for something with no plan. They must take equal responsibility for the mess that we are in now. However, it's spilt milk. The best we can do is mop up the spillage. We were told they had a plan, they lied. We were in the EU without a plan for 47 years and never had a plan, well not a plan of our own, we were just told what to do, and bullied in to doing whatever plan the EU had in store for us. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 13:55:39 GMT
Yes, I know that you were happy with the outcome, but my question was why did people vote for something with no plan? You lost sunshine FFS get over it and move on. As usual Jonksy fails to answer or even address the question. Why did so many people vote for something with no plan? |
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Post by Bentley on Apr 25, 2023 14:07:30 GMT
Cameron was supposed to stay on and steady the ship after after the referendum but he did a runner. Brexit wasn’t Johnson doing anyway , it was the EUs doing ….Farage was more influential than Boris imo. Did the EU kick us out, did they not want us to stay? Are you attempting to change history, Brexit is a Tory cock-up, no one else is to blame. Brexit is reality. Get used to it. |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 25, 2023 14:34:20 GMT
You lost sunshine FFS get over it and move on. As usual Jonksy fails to answer or even address the question. Why did so many people vote for something with no plan? Plan was to leave.
And we've left.
Now we're out we can debate the new relationship to our hearts content.
The thing is, we're now free to have any relationship we want to negotiate with the EU.
Before, we had a toxic relationship.
It wasn't working.
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Post by Fairsociety on Apr 25, 2023 14:41:37 GMT
I mean even if we had a plan, ...what actually goes according to plan?
We could have planned, this, that, and the other, but how can you make a plan when we don't know how the intended planners (negotiators) agree to, or whether it's workable, there aren't many businesses that started with everything going 'according to plan'.
These remoaners they're like a dog with a bone, they'll repeat the same thing over and over again, the red bus will be next ... LOL
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 14:48:20 GMT
As usual Jonksy fails to answer or even address the question. Why did so many people vote for something with no plan? Plan was to leave.
And we've left.
Now we're out we can debate the new relationship to our hearts content.
The thing is, we're now free to have any relationship we want to negotiate with the EU.
Before, we had a toxic relationship.
It wasn't working.
Whilst your fourth sentence is correct, your third seems to indicate that the lack of plan didn't matter. I know what you mean, but that just rings alarm bells to me. Why didn't that matter to you? |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 25, 2023 15:00:52 GMT
Have you ever read Article 50, like I did before the referendum?
It reads:
" CONSOLIDATED VERSION OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION
TITLE VI
FINAL PROVISIONS
Article 50
1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.
4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.
A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."
As a result, unless you trigger it, you cannot negotiate with the EU to put a plan in place.
That means to put a plan together you trigger it and discuss and mutually negotiate like adults.
That's what I as a voter expected.
What I did not expect, was the rabid Europhiles doing everything they could to undermine our position.
I had naively imagined that they would act in good faith and come together for the mutual benefit of us all.
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Post by Fairsociety on Apr 25, 2023 15:10:05 GMT
Have you ever read Article 50, like I did before the referendum? It reads: " CONSOLIDATED VERSION OF THE TREATY ON EUROPEAN UNION TITLE VI FINAL PROVISIONS Article 50 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period. 4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. 5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49." As a result, unless you trigger it, you cannot negotiate with the EU to put a plan in place. That means to put a plan together you trigger it and discuss and mutually negotiate like adults. That's what I as a voter expected. What I did not expect, was the rabid Europhiles doing everything they could to undermine our position.
I had naively imagined that they would act in good faith and come together for the mutual benefit of us all. They run true to form Vin, they played dirty guts, they were never going to play ball, they were going to make it as difficult as they possibly could.
There was no 'negotiating', it was the EU calling the shots and we just agreed, like our 47 year long relationship with them, they said jump, and we said how high?
Most of us knew for years they needed us more than we needed them, they treated us like we needed them to survive, they knew once we got a taste of freedom there would be no turning back. Just look at them now, they are all over the place, they've got no clout, they are almost bankrupt, and the likes of Italy, Spain and Germany now want out, they are finished.
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 25, 2023 15:42:52 GMT
Yes, I know that you were happy with the outcome, but my question was why did people vote for something with no plan? The plan was to leave - we have left.. The terms on which we would leave were up for discussion and as the UK did not have total control over that outcome nobody could have said what the final deal would be. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 15:43:50 GMT
As a result, unless you trigger it, you cannot negotiate with the EU to put a plan in place. That means to put a plan together you trigger it and discuss and mutually negotiate like adults. Whilst that's true, you need to know where your desired destination is before you negotiate. That is the reason that A50 couldn't be triggered the day after the referendum, and the decision to leave the SM and CU was much later. But yet we have people claim that they voted to leave the SM and CU in the referendum. Talk about rewriting history. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Apr 25, 2023 15:52:38 GMT
Yes, I know that you were happy with the outcome, but my question was why did people vote for something with no plan? The plan was to leave - we have left.. The terms on which we would leave were up for discussion and as the UK did not have total control over that outcome nobody could have said what the final deal would be. It's not the terms of leaving that should have been planned, it's the destination. You have to know what you want before you can negotiate. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Apr 25, 2023 15:54:50 GMT
That's four of us who've tried to explain .... LOL ^^
Oh well.
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