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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 8:13:07 GMT
Shock horror.
I support Mr Raab in this.
Whilst my sympathies rest more with those opposed to this government and its views. I do not think its the job of civil servants to delay and prevaricate their instructions in the hope of preventing them coming to pass before the next election.
And in my view that is what we are seeing here.
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 22, 2023 8:21:47 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality.
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 8:27:44 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. And then do as they are told. Dominic Raab was elected. Civil servants are not. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 22, 2023 8:34:07 GMT
I think you're missing the point, zany. The crap that political ideologues dream up is just that; crap. Unworkable crap. Ergo, a politician expecting the people who actually understand governance to make something unworkable work is not reasonable.
I've said many times that 'politics' is the sales & marketing division of 'governance'. Politicians go out amongst the people and promise all manner of pie in the sky nonsense and then have to scurry back to their departments and ask their civil servants to make their fantasy promises work. No wonder there is tension behind the scenes.
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Post by oracle75 on Apr 22, 2023 8:38:39 GMT
From what I hear, the issue was about HOW Raab spoke to people including threatening them and not having respectful discussions.
This way of dealing with "subordinates" was and is frowned upon in environments which include servants and class based employment. The best managers do not have to belittle others and get far more compliance if spoken to with respect.
Real life is not a parade ground.
If you read any information on management skills, you will find whole chunks of it about communication skills. It does not recommend using position as a threat.
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Post by sheepy on Apr 22, 2023 8:40:42 GMT
I think you're missing the point, zany. The crap that political ideologues dream up is just that; crap. Unworkable crap. Ergo, a politician expecting the people who actually understand governance to make something unworkable work is not reasonable. I've said many times that 'politics' is the sales & marketing division of 'governance'. Politicians go out amongst the people and promise all manner of pie in the sky nonsense and then have to scurry back to their departments and ask their civil servants to make their fantasy promises work. No wonder there is tension behind the scenes. Blurring the lines somewhat, the tension is most likely caused by civil servants refusing to enact the democratic will of the people and purposely inventing obstacles. Yet on the other hand when the EU handed down their orders nothing was unfeasible. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 8:56:22 GMT
I think you're missing the point, zany. The crap that political ideologues dream up is just that; crap. Unworkable crap. Ergo, a politician expecting the people who actually understand governance to make something unworkable work is not reasonable. I've said many times that 'politics' is the sales & marketing division of 'governance'. Politicians go out amongst the people and promise all manner of pie in the sky nonsense and then have to scurry back to their departments and ask their civil servants to make their fantasy promises work. No wonder there is tension behind the scenes. So is your opinion that Dominic Raab asked for impossible things and then berated staff for not providing them? Do you have any examples of Mt Raab in particular doing this? As an MD I have had many occasions when staff are asked to carry out simple tasks and fail to do so repeatedly. Its mostly due to 'can't be arsed.' It is very difficult to avoid a scathing comment when someone's inaction causes you a big chunk of trouble and then they repeat that same inaction. I'm surprised you haven't experienced it in your role. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 8:58:56 GMT
From what I hear, the issue was about HOW Raab spoke to people including threatening them and not having respectful discussions. This way of dealing with "subordinates" was and is frowned upon in environments which include servants and class based employment. The best managers do not have to belittle others and get far more compliance if spoken to with respect. Real life is not a parade ground. If you read any information on management skills, you will find whole chunks of it about communication skills. It does not recommend using position as a threat. That's all well and good, but faced with a staff member who's response to all your questions is "Yer I know" Its very difficult to use those communication skills. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 22, 2023 9:04:12 GMT
From what I hear, the issue was about HOW Raab spoke to people including threatening them and not having respectful discussions. This way of dealing with "subordinates" was and is frowned upon in environments which include servants and class based employment. The best managers do not have to belittle others and get far more compliance if spoken to with respect. Real life is not a parade ground. If you read any information on management skills, you will find whole chunks of it about communication skills. It does not recommend using position as a threat. This is true. I was locking horns with a retired senior Naval officer on Twitter about this yesterday. When I went through Staff College (2007), just as he would have had to have done, we are taught leadership theory in some depth and at an academic level equivalent to Masters (level 7). Nowhere in said theory does it support the notion that coercive, antagonistic and threatening behaviour is commensurate with effective leadership. Quite the contrary. You want people to follow you because they believe in what you're doing, not because they are fearful of the consequences of not following blindly. No, making things clearer. This highlights the central problem with our current political landscape. The politicians 'sell' ideological crap that won't work, and people vote for said unworkable crap and then claim that those who know it's crap and can't work with it are 'refusing to enact the democratic will of the people'.  |
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Post by sandypine on Apr 22, 2023 9:10:40 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. Truth of course is usually opinion. I had many an argument with a boss and much of the time I was wrong but sometimes not. It was my job to make work that with which I sometimes passionately disagreed even after voicing my disagreement. That is the nature of employment one either accepts or resigns. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 9:15:35 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. Truth of course is usually opinion. I had many an argument with a boss and much of the time I was wrong but sometimes not. It was my job to make work that with which I sometimes passionately disagreed even after voicing my disagreement. That is the nature of employment one either accepts or resigns. I find people with opinions easy to work with, usually a compromise is found, or a position better explained. The really difficult ones are those who just don't perform. These are the ones never mentioned in communication courses. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Apr 22, 2023 9:45:57 GMT
Shock horror. I support Mr Raab in this. Whilst my sympathies rest more with those opposed to this government and its views. I do not think its the job of civil servants to delay and prevaricate their instructions in the hope of preventing them coming to pass before the next election. And in my view that is what we are seeing here. Already a link  - ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/thread/2350/raab |
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 22, 2023 10:07:05 GMT
Yes Red, but that's five pages of the genetically cloned offspring of Victor Meldrew and Alf Garnett spewing their usual outrage and vitriol. So far, this thread has only featured reasoned debate. Don't spoil it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2023 10:19:12 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. Not really, as our diplomat in Spain was mulling allowing Spanish military onto Gibraltar, which is against government policy. Hugh Elliott was acting outrageously. It's all coming out now. |
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Post by Orac on Apr 22, 2023 10:45:55 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. Sure- civil servants need to be straightforward with politicians However, it isn't the politicians who are logging the bullying complaints |
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