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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 22, 2023 12:31:28 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. This assumes the civil servants know better. What basis do you make that assumption, given they are often from the same schools and universities, plus in recent times civil servants have become politicians? |
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Post by Orac on Apr 22, 2023 12:33:17 GMT
A powerful, politically motivated organisation that can trump elected governments just itself becomes an unelected government with no checks or balances You seem to be happy this organisation is checking your political adversaries and are blind to the implications. I would not characterise the civil service as 'a powerful, politically motivated organisation'. Their job, like mine when I was a soldier, is to be apolitical. Surely you can understand that claiming to be a-political doesn't make it so? What do you suggest should happen if the civil service becomes political? What checks to their power should be applied? |
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 22, 2023 12:49:59 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. This assumes the civil servants know better. What basis do you make that assumption, given they are often from the same schools and universities, plus in recent times civil servants have become politicians? They are as human as anyone else, but it's their job to actually do things, whereas the job of politicians is to lie to the public to gain their support for utopian, ideological dreams. Ergo, as Otto von Bismark might have observed, they work from the perspective of 'the art of the possible'. Politicians are generally poor judges of what is possible, so blinded are they by their desire to make this land in their own image, at whatever cost to the majority who did not vote for them. |
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Post by om15 on Apr 22, 2023 12:54:06 GMT
So it appears that Mr Raab did not shout at anyone, did not gesticulate in a threatening manner, did not throw tomatoes at civil servants, did not insult anyone and nor did he offer violent behaviour towards anyone.
I am disappointed in him, his job is to achieve results by any means.
The civil servants want it all ways and all right thinking people will be looking at this and not feeling very happy about it, they are not being asked to carry out ideological claptrap, merely earn their salary, benefits and pensions by doing what they are told by the elected Government.
I listened to a leftie civil servant union tosser ( Scottish) bleating on about all this, having spent my life working in the most disagreeable of jobs in order to pay for free loaders like that I am glad that I don't have to anymore.
Sunak could have come out of this well, but sadly he didn't and we now have another remainer in power.
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 22, 2023 13:14:14 GMT
Spoken like a true LibDem. It is the job of appointed Whitehall civil servants to implement government policy not to decide which government policy to implement. It is hardly a secret that since 2016 the left wing FDA have become increasingly militant and anti government. This situation should not be allowed to continue, Sunak should get this sorted now and if that means banning civil servants from joining the FDA or any other Trade Union then so be it. Every Home Secretary since Brexit has had a scrap with left wing civil servants who insist they're being bullied, it's pathetic. And please don't say civil servants are neutral. Sue Gray the senior civil servant who stitched up Boris then went to work for Starmer showed how neutral the civil service is. Spoken like a true centrist. When you were a sergeant, Red, would you have blindly followed the orders of your young Troopie when it was bloody obvious he was leading you all into danger, or would you rely on your experience to try and talk him round to a more sensible strategy? And if this Troopie had considered what the sergeant said and decided to do what he wanted to do in the first place? Who decides in that case? |
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Post by Cartertonian on Apr 22, 2023 13:21:55 GMT
Spoken like a true centrist. When you were a sergeant, Red, would you have blindly followed the orders of your young Troopie when it was bloody obvious he was leading you all into danger, or would you rely on your experience to try and talk him round to a more sensible strategy? And if this Troopie had considered what the sergeant said and decided to do what he wanted to do in the first place? Who decides in that case? Usually nothing is decided until the Troopie has spectacularly fucked up and then it will be him and not the poor sergeant who has to explain to the OC why he fucked up... ...but if the sergeant and a couple of his mates got killed thanks to the Troopie, wouldn't you rather that the Troopie had learned to listen to the voice of experience? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Apr 22, 2023 13:22:04 GMT
This assumes the civil servants know better. What basis do you make that assumption, given they are often from the same schools and universities, plus in recent times civil servants have become politicians? They are as human as anyone else, but it's their job to actually do things, whereas the job of politicians is to lie to the public to gain their support for utopian, ideological dreams. Ergo, as Otto von Bismark might have observed, they work from the perspective of 'the art of the possible'. Politicians are generally poor judges of what is possible, so blinded are they by their desire to make this land in their own image, at whatever cost to the majority who did not vote for them. You think no one can be as bad as the people you vote for. I have news for you. In this country there are fuckwits all over the place. In my experience the least dumb are the independent capitalists who have grown a business without some sort of help. Competition weeds out the crap. The trouble is you only need to look at the stats to see they don't see competition. How many civil servants went to public schools? In the population it is about 7%. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 13:38:04 GMT
This assumes the civil servants know better. What basis do you make that assumption, given they are often from the same schools and universities, plus in recent times civil servants have become politicians? They are as human as anyone else, but it's their job to actually do things, whereas the job of politicians is to lie to the public to gain their support for utopian, ideological dreams. Ergo, as Otto von Bismark might have observed, they work from the perspective of 'the art of the possible'. Politicians are generally poor judges of what is possible, so blinded are they by their desire to make this land in their own image, at whatever cost to the majority who did not vote for them. I do not believe Dominic Raab was told a task was impossible, had the reasons explained to him as to why it was impossible and then behaved inappropriately towards the employee. That just doesn't ring true. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 13:42:28 GMT
They are as human as anyone else, but it's their job to actually do things, whereas the job of politicians is to lie to the public to gain their support for utopian, ideological dreams. Ergo, as Otto von Bismark might have observed, they work from the perspective of 'the art of the possible'. Politicians are generally poor judges of what is possible, so blinded are they by their desire to make this land in their own image, at whatever cost to the majority who did not vote for them. You think no one can be as bad as the people you vote for. I have news for you. In this country there are fuckwits all over the place. In my experience the least dumb are the independent capitalists who have grown a business without some sort of help. Competition weeds out the crap. The trouble is you only need to look at the stats to see they don't see competition. How many civil servants went to public schools? In the population it is about 7%. I think the increasing difficulty involved in getting rid of a useless employee (Especially in public services) has lead to the opposite of entrepreneurs. With little or no chance you can be sacked for poor performance there is no incentive to try harder. |
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Post by oracle75 on Apr 22, 2023 15:21:11 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. This assumes the civil servants know better. What basis do you make that assumption, given they are often from the same schools and universities, plus in recent times civil servants have become politicians? why do you assumw they stop learning when they leave school? A large part of their job is to know better. To research the viability, predict the national value of and to cost the cabinet's proposals. And how do you expect a minister of health who last month was the minister for transport to know how to even budget for bandages? |
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Post by oracle75 on Apr 22, 2023 15:38:17 GMT
You think no one can be as bad as the people you vote for. I have news for you. In this country there are fuckwits all over the place. In my experience the least dumb are the independent capitalists who have grown a business without some sort of help. Competition weeds out the crap. The trouble is you only need to look at the stats to see they don't see competition. How many civil servants went to public schools? In the population it is about 7%. I think the increasing difficulty involved in getting rid of a useless employee (Especially in public services) has lead to the opposite of entrepreneurs. With little or no chance you can be sacked for poor performance there is no incentive to try harder. No one can ever say the Japanese art of management is not successful. But it involves unified purpose from top management to the lowliest wastebasket emptier. Meetings for everyone outline short and longterm goals and everyone is on the same page. No one wants to be singled out for shirking or poor workmanship or productivity or even for being late. In France the power of unions over a long period of time has generated a mutual respect between workers and management weighted in favour of respect for workers by management. In the UK management thinks they can disrespect those further down the food chain due to some unwrittwn hierarchy of importance that assumes the higher up you are, the more correct you are. And speaking truth to power is denigrated as whistleblowing, a kind of disloyal leftover from days of master and servant. Management should be educated enough to know how to speak to everyone with respect and to MANAGE the situation. If someone is slacking, find out why. Try to help the employee, not insult them. Recently there has been publicity about the effect some women feel during menopause. And sometimes domestic issues are hard to forget or ignore. Employees are humans, not robots to be programmed. |
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Post by sandypine on Apr 22, 2023 15:48:39 GMT
This assumes the civil servants know better. What basis do you make that assumption, given they are often from the same schools and universities, plus in recent times civil servants have become politicians? why do you assumw they stop learning when they leave school? A large part of their job is to know better. To research the viability, predict the national value of and to cost the cabinet's proposals. And how do you expect a minister of health who last month was the minister for transport to know how to even budget for bandages? We expect ministers to bring new thinking to how one budgets for bandages etc through their proposed policies. A Civil Servants job is not to know better it is to know what is, and forecast what could be given the Minister's proposals, with a breakdown of costs. The minister then decides as the Minister is effectively deciding for the Crown with regard to the people he represents which is the electorate. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Apr 22, 2023 15:50:44 GMT
It's the job of Whitehall civil servants to speak truth to power, not to be unthinking professional sycophants. Someone behind the scenes needs to be able to say to politicians of whichever party that the ideologically-driven claptrap they spout at the dispatch box and through the media actually won't work in reality. Also sprach Sir Humphrey. |
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Post by oracle75 on Apr 22, 2023 15:54:35 GMT
No.
A minister suggests the country needs more bandages. It plays well with the public and the government can sell the idea to voters and boast about investing for the common good.
The minister has no idea if there is a need or whether it is locally or nationally.
The CS do the rest and the minister then decides whether to go ahead or not.
Ministers dont bring new ideas, they recycle old ones. Or the new idea is patently stupid...like Smart motorways and the rerouting chaos in London.
If they had new ideas they might actually solve some old problems.
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 15:54:42 GMT
I think the increasing difficulty involved in getting rid of a useless employee (Especially in public services) has lead to the opposite of entrepreneurs. With little or no chance you can be sacked for poor performance there is no incentive to try harder. No one can ever say the Japanese art of management is not successful. But it involves unified purpose from top management to the lowliest wastebasket emptier. Meetings for everyone outline short and longterm goals and everyone is on the same page. No one wants to be singled out for shirking or poor workmanship or productivity or even for being late. In France the power of unions over a long period of time has generated a mutual respect between workers and management weighted in favour of respect for workers by management. In the UK management thinks they can disrespect those further down the food chain due to some unwrittwn hierarchy of importance that assumes the higher up you are, the more correct you are. And speaking truth to power is denigrated as whistleblowing, a kind of disloyal leftover from days of master and servant. Management should be educated enough to know how to speak to everyone with respect and to MANAGE the situation. If someone is slacking, find out why. Try to help the employee, not insult them. Recently there has been publicity about the effect some women feel during menopause. And sometimes domestic issues are hard to forget or ignore. Employees are humans, not robots to be programmed. What company have you ever worked for where the management behaved as you describe. Certainly not any I know, the lines are far to blurred for an us and them environment. The ones that make the news do so because they are unusual, not typical. As you say it works in Japan because of mutual respect (A cultural thing) But it should be a two way thing. Far too many people in this country think being a boss is a doddle with executive toilets and easy money. Oh and bosses have emotions too. Shock horror. |
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