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Post by oracle75 on Apr 22, 2023 16:02:29 GMT
I had a manager who steered the company towards the Japanese model though it was tricky as offices were dispersed across a large area.
And i have not experienced the British model, but have heard many stories about overbearing and thoughtless management there. Tune unto any chat show and find countless stories of the disrespect of "underlings" by management.
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Post by sandypine on Apr 22, 2023 16:04:10 GMT
No. A minister suggests the country needs more bandages. It plays well with the public and the government can sell the idea to voters and boast about investing for the common good. The minister has no idea if there is a need or whether it is locally or nationally. The CS do the rest and the minister then decides whether to go ahead or not. I did not say the system was perfect but I was indicating how it should work and how those should interact. Human frailties will be apparent in Ministers and in Civil Servants but it still boils down to the fact that the Minister is in the end the one who decides and that is how it should be as he is a Minister of the Crown and a representative of the people. Some Ministers are good, Enoch Powell was held to be exemplary, whilst some are bad and those are currently far too many. |
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Post by oracle75 on Apr 22, 2023 16:05:45 GMT
Parliament decides.
Not the Minister.
I hope that is still the case?
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Post by sandypine on Apr 22, 2023 16:30:24 GMT
Parliament decides. Not the Minister. I hope that is still the case? No the Minister decides Parliament holds him to account. The Minister is responsible for policy and its implementation but is accountable to parliamen.t for his actions and the consequence of his actions. Parliament has already decided by way of allowing the formation of a government, they can only decide to interfere with the polices of that government by voting against the government. |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 16:43:58 GMT
I had a manager who steered the company towards the Japanese model though it was tricky as offices were dispersed across a large area. And i have not experienced the British model, but have heard many stories about overbearing and thoughtless management there. Tune unto any chat show and find countless stories of the disrespect of "underlings" by management. Strange how they never feature the other side. I've certainly seen it. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Apr 22, 2023 16:44:16 GMT
Parliament decides. Not the Minister. I hope that is still the case? It would seem not. It used to be the case that the minister would implement government policy. That is no longer the case. These days appointed civil servants decide which policies are to be adopted, and which policies are to be binned. If some upitty minister gets in the way, he's accused of bullying and replaced. |
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Post by Orac on Apr 22, 2023 17:00:22 GMT
I think the increasing difficulty involved in getting rid of a useless employee (Especially in public services) has lead to the opposite of entrepreneurs. With little or no chance you can be sacked for poor performance there is no incentive to try harder. But it involves unified purpose from top management to the lowliest wastebasket emptier. Meetings for everyone outline short and longterm goals and everyone is on the same page. No one wants to be singled out for shirking or poor workmanship or productivity or even for being late. ..the bloody meetings. hours down the drain to no end The meetings themselves spawning a host of otherwise useless 'meeting organisers' and assorted HR hanging articles Oh god no No No |
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Post by zanygame on Apr 22, 2023 17:09:43 GMT
But it involves unified purpose from top management to the lowliest wastebasket emptier. Meetings for everyone outline short and longterm goals and everyone is on the same page. No one wants to be singled out for shirking or poor workmanship or productivity or even for being late. ..the bloody meetings. hours down the drain to no end The meetings themselves spawning a host of otherwise useless 'meeting organisers' and assorted HR hanging articles Oh god no No No Meetings spent explaining that profit is not sales minus wages. Sigh. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 22, 2023 17:20:53 GMT
I think the increasing difficulty involved in getting rid of a useless employee (Especially in public services) has lead to the opposite of entrepreneurs. With little or no chance you can be sacked for poor performance there is no incentive to try harder. No one can ever say the Japanese art of management is not successful. But it involves unified purpose from top management to the lowliest wastebasket emptier. Meetings for everyone outline short and longterm goals and everyone is on the same page. No one wants to be singled out for shirking or poor workmanship or productivity or even for being late.
I'm not sure that would be legal in the UK - public humiliation in front of other colleagues was always a no-no when I was managing sections. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Apr 22, 2023 17:27:43 GMT
I was imagining my staff, I walk in one morning and say 'right get down to work', and they say 'no', and I say why?.
They say we don't like the way you do things, we'd rather do it our way.
I'd say 'who pays your salary'?
They say you do.
And I say..
Well do what the fuck you are told to do, and paid for, or you are fired.
Is that bullying or just demanding your workforce do what they are employed to do?
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Post by Orac on Apr 22, 2023 17:30:29 GMT
..the bloody meetings. hours down the drain to no end The meetings themselves spawning a host of otherwise useless 'meeting organisers' and assorted HR hanging articles Oh god no No No Meetings spent explaining that profit is not sales minus wages. Sigh. Adam Smith created the notion of the division of labour and this notion also applies to the division of attention. Attention is conserved and everyone only has so much they can sensibly give. If you wear your staff out forcing them to pay attention to long lectures about things that have nothing at all to do with the role you want them to perform, you will likely demotivate them. A good team has specialised (complementary) attention and goals. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Apr 22, 2023 17:44:40 GMT
I was imagining my staff, I walk in one morning and say 'right get down to work', and they say 'no', and I say why?. They say we don't like the way you do things, we'd rather do it our way. I'd say 'who pays your salary'? They say you do. And I say.. Well do what the fuck you are told to do, and paid for, or you are fired. Is that bullying or just demanding your workforce do what they are employed to do? Well FS, it rather depends who your talking to. If you're talking to normal well adjusted sensible people who have a grasp of the realities of life today, then no of course it's not bullying. But, if you're talking to young left wing, militant, woke types, then without a shadow of doubt, you're a bully. Probably a far right extremist bully. |
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Post by wapentake on Apr 22, 2023 19:04:16 GMT
I’m neither a Tory nor a fan of Raab and have no first hand knowledge of whether bullying occurred or not.
However the idea that civil servants are in a better place to implement what is best for the country is nonsense,of course they are there to advise but surely the final decision lies with the elected politician.
Whether the democratic system be flawed or not the politicians seasoned liars or not the clue is in the name servants and that’s what they are or should be servants of the state and it’s people and isn’t that part of the problems we have,the Westminster bubble where the politicians lie and do as they wish or perhaps now it’s the civil servants having the whip hand doing much the same.
If the will of the people has to be ignored (and that’s often the case) then let’s dismiss the whole charade and understand it’s a dictatorship whether benign or not.
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Post by Red Rackham on Apr 22, 2023 19:50:43 GMT
I’m neither a Tory nor a fan of Raab and have no first hand knowledge of whether bullying occurred or not. However the idea that civil servants are in a better place to implement what is best for the country is nonsense,of course they are there to advise but surely the final decision lies with the elected politician. Whether the democratic system be flawed or not the politicians seasoned liars or not the clue is in the name servants and that’s what they are or should be servants of the state and it’s people and isn’t that part of the problems we have,the Westminster bubble where the politicians lie and do as they wish or perhaps now it’s the civil servants having the whip hand doing much the same. If the will of the people has to be ignored (and that’s often the case) then let’s dismiss the whole charade and understand it’s a dictatorship whether benign or not. I would be very surprised if 'bullying' occurred. Of course it rather depends on what you regard bullying to be. These days you need only use the wrong pronoun to be accused of some heinous hate crime. It has long been established that civil servants advise, ministers decide. However, I think it's more than obvious that things are changing. It seems ministers may not disregard advice from appointed civil servants without being accused of bullying and hounded out of office. Times are a changing, and not for the better. Of course our democratic system is flawed, every democratic system is flawed. No democratic system will ever satisfy the entirety of the electorate but democracy however flawed must be embraced, the alternative is too awful to contemplate. |
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Post by wapentake on Apr 22, 2023 20:41:34 GMT
I’m neither a Tory nor a fan of Raab and have no first hand knowledge of whether bullying occurred or not. However the idea that civil servants are in a better place to implement what is best for the country is nonsense,of course they are there to advise but surely the final decision lies with the elected politician. Whether the democratic system be flawed or not the politicians seasoned liars or not the clue is in the name servants and that’s what they are or should be servants of the state and it’s people and isn’t that part of the problems we have,the Westminster bubble where the politicians lie and do as they wish or perhaps now it’s the civil servants having the whip hand doing much the same. If the will of the people has to be ignored (and that’s often the case) then let’s dismiss the whole charade and understand it’s a dictatorship whether benign or not. I would be very surprised if 'bullying' occurred. Of course it rather depends on what you regard bullying to be. These days you need only use the wrong pronoun to be accused of some heinous hate crime. It has long been established that civil servants advise, ministers decide. However, I think it's more than obvious that things are changing. It seems ministers may not disregard advice from appointed civil servants without being accused of bullying and hounded out of office. Times are a changing, and not for the better. Of course our democratic system is flawed, every democratic system is flawed. No democratic system will ever satisfy the entirety of the electorate but democracy however flawed must be embraced, the alternative is too awful to contemplate. I’m not advocating dictatorship but facing the reality as I perceive it,yes I believe it has changed where at least the politicians who largely ignored the people(except at election time) were elected,civil servants are not and appear to have the upper hand. I don’t want to be patted on the head and be told I’m a good boy and lead on a leash nor do I want to be a battered dog either but aren’t both little better than the reality as is? |
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