|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Apr 23, 2023 8:31:42 GMT
He's in a no win situation because he can't please all of the people, so he needs to choose which ones are more important, and which will win Labour the next GE.
He is , because his two main selling points to the scottish and english electorate , that is unionism and rejoining the EU isnt popular , so he has to hope he falls into place off the back of discontent with snp and tory rule.
Ive never known a party in political history to oppose public opinion such as labour do with their "we know best " attitude.
Kind of explains why they lose elections more than they win them
Exactly, and I have a hunch he thinks he's going to win the next GE purely on how badly the snp and tories are performing (at the moment), he wont commit to policies because he knows they'll be unpopular, and if he dares put forward a manifesto that is just pure lies to appease the Brexit voters and sort out the illegal boat people, and then doesn't deliver on them if he wins the election, the electorate will never forgive Labour, and they will never be in power again.
However, even four years of a Labour/Starmer government, they can do irreversible damage that would take the Tories forever to sort out, the damage will be done, and those who voted Labour will realise why they were out of office for over 14 years. (2024)
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 8:39:10 GMT
not surprised borkie. Politics ,and the law of its unintended consequences is a difficult art to master in terms of predictions.
In the ideal world for labour , they should be out of sight in terms of both scottish and english politics with the state of the tories and the snp , but they arent.
like i said borkie , keir starmer seems to have mastered the art of fluffing open goals and losing elections and votes. He just seems to be a very strange unpopular wooden politician who cant do right for doing wrong.
It might be said that Starmer is a stodgy, self serving son of a bitch Tommy, but to be fair, he does not have a lot of competition  well surely thats a weakness in the political system that someone as talentless as starmer can possibly rise to the top?
The more talentless benchwarmers you have in your parliament running the uk , the more and more the uk will spiral downwards? i mean borkie , is it just me or is that too logical to point out?
Starmer does have competition both inside and out the labour party. I can think of many politicians in all parties who i think are credibly better politicians than keir starmer.
If he does become the next uk prime minister , can you honestly tell me you see him sorting out the wheat from the chaff and setting things right? I mean the first thing he will do is take the uk back into the EU by hook or by crook.
Still it should be a laugh watching him stumble from one crises to the next. Not sure though our pockets could take another new labour government though.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 8:52:24 GMT
He is , because his two main selling points to the scottish and english electorate , that is unionism and rejoining the EU isnt popular , so he has to hope he falls into place off the back of discontent with snp and tory rule.
Ive never known a party in political history to oppose public opinion such as labour do with their "we know best " attitude.
Kind of explains why they lose elections more than they win them
Exactly, and I have a hunch he thinks he's going to win the next GE purely on how badly the snp and tories are performing (at the moment), he wont commit to policies because he knows they'll be unpopular, and if he dares put forward a manifesto that is just pure lies to appease the Brexit voters and sort out the illegal boat people, and then doesn't deliver on them if he wins the election, the electorate will never forgive Labour, and they will never be in power again.
However, even four years of a Labour/Starmer government, they can do irreversible damage that would take the Tories forever to sort out, the damage will be done, and those who voted Labour will realise why they were out of office for over 14 years. (2024)
exactly. At some point though he is going to have to cobble together some policies in the run up to the next general election over the next 18 months. I just dont get the new labour mantra , and why they are trying to regurgitate the political antics of the blair years.
This isnt 1997 , you cant wind back the clock and do the same thing over and over . Blair didnt face any of the issues we have today across the uk. Kinnock and smith had left him a party on the rise , high membership and they did all the donkey work for blair over a decade or more. The opposite is the case at the minute.
The two party system was still going strong in the late nineties , which is part is why triangulating , where labour effectively became the tories but at the same time , held the left wing vote while they cherry picked soft tories in the southern english marginals worked so well.
Again that isnt the case now, with both scottish and english politics more splintered across various parties and less labour tory tribalism .People have more choice and options. Thats before we even talk about brexit and scot indy etc etc.
Im convinced starmer is going to crash and burn over the next 18 months. Tactically , as we saw in the GE2019 and his flawed brexit strategy , the guy and his advisors are clueless. i could be wrong , but labour seem to be currently stumbling along with a soft poll lead , rather than blairs confident march to victory in 1997.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Apr 23, 2023 9:08:29 GMT
Exactly, and I have a hunch he thinks he's going to win the next GE purely on how badly the snp and tories are performing (at the moment), he wont commit to policies because he knows they'll be unpopular, and if he dares put forward a manifesto that is just pure lies to appease the Brexit voters and sort out the illegal boat people, and then doesn't deliver on them if he wins the election, the electorate will never forgive Labour, and they will never be in power again.
However, even four years of a Labour/Starmer government, they can do irreversible damage that would take the Tories forever to sort out, the damage will be done, and those who voted Labour will realise why they were out of office for over 14 years. (2024)
exactly. At some point though he is going to have to cobble together some policies in the run up to the next general election over the next 18 months. I just dont get the new labour mantra , and why they are trying to regurgitate the political antics of the blair years.
This isnt 1997 , you cant wind back the clock and do the same thing over and over . Blair didnt face any of the issues we have today across the uk. Kinnock and smith had left him a party on the rise , high membership and they did all the donkey work for blair over a decade or more. The opposite is the case at the minute.
The two party system was still going strong in the late nineties , which is part is why triangulating , where labour effectively became the tories but at the same time , held the left wing vote while they cherry picked soft tories in the southern english marginals worked so well.
Again that isnt the case now, with both scottish and english politics more splintered across various parties and less labour tory tribalism .People have more choice and options. Thats before we even talk about brexit and scot indy etc etc.
Im convinced starmer is going to crash and burn over the next 18 months. Tactically , as we saw in the GE2019 and his flawed brexit strategy , the guy and his advisors are clueless. i could be wrong , but labour seem to be currently stumbling along with a soft poll lead , rather than blairs confident march to victory in 1997.
yes, and people have short memories, if the Tories and SNP get their acts together, all this here and now will be water under the bridge, the closer we get to the elections will be what is fresh in voters minds, so if the Tories mess up it's game over, however Labour have plenty of skeleton's in the cupboard that could pop-up at any time, and come back to haunt them. I believe the Tories should have pushed more for a inquiry in to Sue Grays handling and inquiry into partygate, and Johnson, it's clear she was in cahoots with Starmer/Labour which makes her findings completely bias.
Labour need to be squeaky clean, keep their heads down, and not put a foot wrong, which is a tall order for them, the Tories have taken the knocks and appear to be coming back, it's Labour who has to do all the hard work if they want the keys to No.10.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 9:18:52 GMT
exactly. At some point though he is going to have to cobble together some policies in the run up to the next general election over the next 18 months. I just dont get the new labour mantra , and why they are trying to regurgitate the political antics of the blair years.
This isnt 1997 , you cant wind back the clock and do the same thing over and over . Blair didnt face any of the issues we have today across the uk. Kinnock and smith had left him a party on the rise , high membership and they did all the donkey work for blair over a decade or more. The opposite is the case at the minute.
The two party system was still going strong in the late nineties , which is part is why triangulating , where labour effectively became the tories but at the same time , held the left wing vote while they cherry picked soft tories in the southern english marginals worked so well.
Again that isnt the case now, with both scottish and english politics more splintered across various parties and less labour tory tribalism .People have more choice and options. Thats before we even talk about brexit and scot indy etc etc.
Im convinced starmer is going to crash and burn over the next 18 months. Tactically , as we saw in the GE2019 and his flawed brexit strategy , the guy and his advisors are clueless. i could be wrong , but labour seem to be currently stumbling along with a soft poll lead , rather than blairs confident march to victory in 1997.
yes, and people have short memories, if the Tories and SNP get their acts together, all this here and now will be water under the bridge, the closer we get to the elections will be what is fresh in voters minds, so if the Tories mess up it's game over, however Labour have plenty of skeleton's in the cupboard that could pop-up at any time, and come back to haunt them. I believe the Tories should have pushed more for a inquiry in to Sue Grays handling and inquiry into partygate, and Johnson, it's clear she was in cahoots with Starmer/Labour which makes her findings completely bias.
Labour need to be squeaky clean, keep their heads down, and not put a foot wrong, which is a tall order for them, the Tories have taken the knocks and appear to be coming back, it's Labour who has to do all the hard work if they want the keys to No.10.
there is so much dirt on both starmer and labour i think many of the other parties are simply biding their time .
Some people do have short memories i agree , others like ourselves have clearly been burnt by past labour governments and dont want to go through it all again. i agree , again , with your post above. If starmer limps into power in 18 months time simply by saying doing and offering nothing , except living off the back of cheap pot shots at both the scottish and westmisnter governments , then it will be a terrible indictment of the uk political system for westmisnter and should rally calls further for a complete political overhaul of the out of date disasterous fptp two party system.
The thought of some of those absolute roasters in labour like reeve , cooper , lady nugee and nandy nevermind wooden starmer in charge of the uk and our purse strings once again fills me with dread. People cant say they werent warned.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Apr 23, 2023 9:36:30 GMT
yes, and people have short memories, if the Tories and SNP get their acts together, all this here and now will be water under the bridge, the closer we get to the elections will be what is fresh in voters minds, so if the Tories mess up it's game over, however Labour have plenty of skeleton's in the cupboard that could pop-up at any time, and come back to haunt them. I believe the Tories should have pushed more for a inquiry in to Sue Grays handling and inquiry into partygate, and Johnson, it's clear she was in cahoots with Starmer/Labour which makes her findings completely bias.
Labour need to be squeaky clean, keep their heads down, and not put a foot wrong, which is a tall order for them, the Tories have taken the knocks and appear to be coming back, it's Labour who has to do all the hard work if they want the keys to No.10.
there is so much dirt on both starmer and labour i think many of the other parties are simply biding their time .
Some people do have short memories i agree , others like ourselves have clearly been burnt by past labour governments and dont want to go through it all again. i agree , again , with your post above. If starmer limps into power in 18 months time simply by saying doing and offering nothing , except living off the back of cheap pot shots at both the scottish and westmisnter governments , then it will be a terrible indictment of the uk political system for westmisnter and should rally calls further for a complete political overhaul of the out of date disasterous fptp two party system.
The thought of some of those absolute roasters in labour like reeve , cooper , lady nugee and nandy nevermind wooden starmer in charge of the uk and our purse strings once again fills me with dread. People cant say they werent warned.
So true, and some people do have long term memories if something sticks out in their mind as being so bad, hence the reason there are still those who remember the days of Labour running or ruining the country, so yes it's stayed with them, as for the younger voters Labour will rely on them being too young to remember how bad they were.
Labour do have the added bonus of the Unions who are powerful, and apparently the civil service and public sector support, which combined could become a problem for the Tories, I think in Scotland the people have wised up after the snp shenanigans, so they will be extra careful who they vote for, but I think the snp will pull themselves together, and will be the phoenix of politics.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 9:47:35 GMT
there is so much dirt on both starmer and labour i think many of the other parties are simply biding their time .
Some people do have short memories i agree , others like ourselves have clearly been burnt by past labour governments and dont want to go through it all again. i agree , again , with your post above. If starmer limps into power in 18 months time simply by saying doing and offering nothing , except living off the back of cheap pot shots at both the scottish and westmisnter governments , then it will be a terrible indictment of the uk political system for westmisnter and should rally calls further for a complete political overhaul of the out of date disasterous fptp two party system.
The thought of some of those absolute roasters in labour like reeve , cooper , lady nugee and nandy nevermind wooden starmer in charge of the uk and our purse strings once again fills me with dread. People cant say they werent warned.
So true, and some people do have long term memories if something sticks out in their mind as being so bad, hence the reason there are still those who remember the days of Labour running or ruining the country, so yes it's stayed with them, as for the younger voters Labour will rely on them being too young to remember how bad they were.
Labour do have the added bonus of the Unions who are powerful, and apparently the civil service and public sector support, which combined could become a problem for the Tories, I think in Scotland the people have wised up after the snp shenanigans, so they will be extra careful who they vote for, but I think the snp will pull themselves together, and will be the phoenix of politics.
Agree with your post again. Labour are a large large part of the problems besetting the uk today , and they definetly arent the solution. Simply more of the same that has brought the entire uk to its knees .
We will see how it all plays out , but i and my family wont encourage or support a new labour victory in any way shape of form .
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 23, 2023 9:57:28 GMT
To my eternal shame, I voted for Blair in 1997. An egotistical act that the feel will feature heavily in reports sent to my creator after my death.
If I had known at the time I was playing any part in steering the western world into the 'worst timeline', dys-meritocratic, dysfunctional cataclysm we now see, I would have found something better to do with my time.
I shall not forget Labour. A 'learning experience' with lessons handed out over decades
|
|
|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Apr 23, 2023 9:58:28 GMT
So true, and some people do have long term memories if something sticks out in their mind as being so bad, hence the reason there are still those who remember the days of Labour running or ruining the country, so yes it's stayed with them, as for the younger voters Labour will rely on them being too young to remember how bad they were.
Labour do have the added bonus of the Unions who are powerful, and apparently the civil service and public sector support, which combined could become a problem for the Tories, I think in Scotland the people have wised up after the snp shenanigans, so they will be extra careful who they vote for, but I think the snp will pull themselves together, and will be the phoenix of politics.
Agree with your post again. Labour are a large large part of the problems besetting the uk today , and they definetly arent the solution. Simply more of the same that has brought the entire uk to its knees .
We will see how it all plays out , but i and my family wont encourage or support a new labour victory in any way shape of form .
Spot on, and with the benefit of hindsight, and the benefit of remembering, if Labour do win the next GE, the likes of you and me, and others more wiser will know where it will all end, in tears, and with that we will be the ones who can safely say ........"'See. I told you so!". |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 10:01:39 GMT
To my eternal shame, I voted for Blair in 1997. An egotistical act that the feel will feature heavily in reports sent to my creator after my death. If I had known at the time I was playing any part in steering the western world into the 'worst timeline', dys-meritocratic, dysfunctional cataclysm we now see, I would have found something better to do with my time. I shall not forget Labour. A 'learning experience' with lessons handed out over decades Magrathea , you arent alone . I too to my eternal shame voted blair and new labour in 1997 , along with millions of others who feel exactly the same as we now do.
Within months of his election much of the media were already turning on him......
|
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 23, 2023 10:03:35 GMT
The problem is the Conservatives are not really offering a remedy
I appreciate a managed decline over chaotically plummeting into the pit of darkness - but the destination is the same. What is really needed is some kind of choice.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 10:08:27 GMT
Agree with your post again. Labour are a large large part of the problems besetting the uk today , and they definetly arent the solution. Simply more of the same that has brought the entire uk to its knees .
We will see how it all plays out , but i and my family wont encourage or support a new labour victory in any way shape of form .
Spot on, and with the benefit of hindsight, and the benefit of remembering, if Labour do win the next GE, the likes of you and me, and others more wiser will know where it will all end, in tears, and with that we will be the ones who can safely say ........"'See. I told you so!". I repeat what i say time and again , from personal experience , every time that party are in power at local national or uk level i and my family are worse off financially. Every single time.
Starmer can scream all day long that labour are fiscally responsible now, but a leopard doesnt change its spots , and they simply cannot be trusted with the finances of the local council never mind holyrood or westmisnter.
Tony blair was the man who lost new labour 4 million voters between 1997 and 2005 , that before see 2 comes along to blame the 2008 financial crash. Only someone as deluded as starmer would think this marks a totem of better times for labour.
As you hinted at earlier , if starmer and the latest new labour continue to erode whats left of their founding values so they can fall into place in power in 18 months , this party really will be in the political abyss for ever more.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Apr 23, 2023 10:10:29 GMT
The problem is the Conservatives are not really offering a remedy I appreciate a managed decline over chaotically plummeting into the pit of darkness - but the destination is the same. What is really needed is some kind of choice. reform of the political system for westmisnter and political choice goes hand in hand. all either of the man two parties are interested is the few marginals across the uk state. while the current system that enables benchwarming clowns sitting in unassailable positions continues , the decline and lack of choice of the uk and its political system will carry on at pace. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Apr 23, 2023 10:27:28 GMT
To my eternal shame, I voted for Blair in 1997. An egotistical act that the feel will feature heavily in reports sent to my creator after my death. If I had known at the time I was playing any part in steering the western world into the 'worst timeline', dys-meritocratic, dysfunctional cataclysm we now see, I would have found something better to do with my time. I shall not forget Labour. A 'learning experience' with lessons handed out over decades Magrathea , you arent alone . I too to my eternal shame voted blair and new labour in 1997 , along with millions of others who feel exactly the same as we now do.
Within months of his election much of the media were already turning on him......
1997 was a long time ago and memories of much of that period for me are somewhat ill defined politically. If i had been paying attention at the time I would have seen the massive, co-ordinated media campaign to paint this guy as the harmless. shirt sleeves up 'ordinary bloke' that Britain needed to clear out the cobwebs of our past as the diabolical manipulation it was. He was sold almost solely on style - the understanding, new look manager - and when I say style, I mean in it in its most facile sense. Bair's success, gained simply through careful media image curation, set the ' tone' going forward. We never recovered imho. |
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Apr 23, 2023 10:33:20 GMT
To my eternal shame, I voted for Blair in 1997. An egotistical act that the feel will feature heavily in reports sent to my creator after my death. If I had known at the time I was playing any part in steering the western world into the 'worst timeline', dys-meritocratic, dysfunctional cataclysm we now see, I would have found something better to do with my time. I shall not forget Labour. A 'learning experience' with lessons handed out over decades You are not alone with that cross to bear, I voted for NewLabour twice as I still believed that a Labour government was concerned with the well being of the British people. These are lessons we learn in life often too late as I turned from quite liking Blair to an almost incandescent rage against him. Some say Maggie was the most hated person in the UK. Blair I think tops her. |
|
