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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2022 11:29:57 GMT
1. That doesn't compute. I would like to see some reference to that claim in order to fully understand what went on. 2. He was in the middle of fighting for Brexit, what else could he have been referring to? (the intent to send a message is often too subtle for some and too easy for others) 3. Yes 400 million plus. So why even mention such an obviously silly point if it wasn't an attempt to mislead some people? ("could" can be taken as suggesting it might happen or a massive overwhelming influx of FoM migrants might happen)
But for me the biggest lie was the claim that the EU was run by unelected people, What lie? When did a single individual out of the 400 million plus have a vote on the shysters who control their lives? Your question exposes your lack of knowledge. The EU just as the UK practices 'Representative Democracy'. The people who make the final decisions in the EU are the elected members of the EU Parliament. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2022 11:48:22 GMT
Such "lies" could only be opinions because no proof was or could be offered. The lie that the EU is run by unelected people HAS been disproved, and the evidence HAS always been there. Hmm it seems that elections that matter, and goodness knows they are becoming ever more irrelevant, are not part of the EU make up. The fickleness of the electorate has been ironed out through the Council, appointed Commissioners, an elected parliament and the sheer volume of distant representation that these features embody. When a Europe wide electorate has had enough of the EU there is little that can be done to send the warning shots over the bows. The Council is the 'elected representatives' whose duty to the electorate is suborned to their own needs, wishes and futures. We have seen this through Heath, Jenkins, Kinnock, Major and Blair I have little doubt many other countries see the same scenario. A change in one sees little change in the direction. The EU is a bureaucracy where elections are allowed to only tinker at the margins of that bureaucracy and where stability of government is more important than the accountability of government. When one creates a Behemoth it is often difficult to control that purely from the point of view of its unwieldly bulk. The UK is similar in many ways, just on a smaller scale. As regards to the size of the EU that might bring some difficulties, but America has done well with 331.4m population. If the alternative is authoritarian Dictatorship, I will back EU Democracy every time. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 25, 2022 12:11:53 GMT
What lie? When did a single individual out of the 400 million plus have a vote on the shysters who control their lives? The people who make the final decisions in the EU are the elected members of the EU Parliament. No my question cannot be answered by pro eu bullshit you mean.
Even von-de-liar was chosen behind closed doors. The eu higher echelon are just made up of total failures. So what do you suggest next broomsticks at dawn?
Von der Leyen’s last-minute nomination saved EU leaders from having to hand over the crucial pick to the EU Parliament but resulted in them circumventing the so-called “spitzenkandidaten” process, a system in which the main party blocs in the European Parliament nominate their lead candidates.
Anything else I can help you out with C2
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 25, 2022 13:20:22 GMT
You are all arguing about fringe issues.
Brexit was a referendum on the Freedom of Movement.
Before Freedom of Movement the UK was massively pro-Europe.
Freedom of Movement allows a temporary workforce to flood into your country and drive down wages and terms and conditions. The temporary part is very important. A temporary worker doesn't mind house sharing, a temporary worker doesn't want to start a family... so they can work for a wage far lower than a native who wants to buy a house, start a family, build a life!! Even if this doesn't directly affect you, are you so sure it isn't affecting your children? Where is the incentive for education, apprenticeships when you can just import it all?
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Post by totheleft3 on Oct 25, 2022 13:27:35 GMT
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Post by Toreador on Oct 25, 2022 14:14:28 GMT
You are all arguing about fringe issues. Brexit was a referendum on the Freedom of Movement.Before Freedom of Movement the UK was massively pro-Europe. Freedom of Movement allows a temporary workforce to flood into your country and drive down wages and terms and conditions. The temporary part is very important. A temporary worker doesn't mind house sharing, a temporary worker doesn't want to start a family... so they can work for a wage far lower than a native who wants to buy a house, start a family, build a life!! Even if this doesn't directly affect you, are you so sure it isn't affecting your children? Where is the incentive for education, apprenticeships when you can just import it all? Not entirely, whilst it may have been the main factor for many it was a subordinate add-on for those who had had made their decision long before FoM became an issue. |
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 25, 2022 20:50:31 GMT
You are all arguing about fringe issues. Brexit was a referendum on the Freedom of Movement.Before Freedom of Movement the UK was massively pro-Europe. Freedom of Movement allows a temporary workforce to flood into your country and drive down wages and terms and conditions. The temporary part is very important. A temporary worker doesn't mind house sharing, a temporary worker doesn't want to start a family... so they can work for a wage far lower than a native who wants to buy a house, start a family, build a life!! Even if this doesn't directly affect you, are you so sure it isn't affecting your children? Where is the incentive for education, apprenticeships when you can just import it all? Not entirely, whilst it may have been the main factor for many it was a subordinate add-on for those who had had made their decision long before FoM became an issue. I disagree, it was the effects of Freedom of Movement that forced the referendum in the first place. The original referendum was to join a trading bloc. Nobody asked the British public if they wanted what was in the Maascricht treaty. If you remember, signing that treaty without consulting the electorate is what did for John Mayor. I knew Leave would win. I was travelling the length and breadth of the country at the time, and I heard the same thing everywhere. People were complaining about the level of EU immigration. Millions of EU nationals had come into the country and people's wages and terms and conditions were going backwards, there was a massive housing shortage and massive strain on public services. Unless you are going to argue that you can add 5%-10% to the population and it has no effect on jobs, housing and public services? |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 25, 2022 21:15:14 GMT
Hmm it seems that elections that matter, and goodness knows they are becoming ever more irrelevant, are not part of the EU make up. The fickleness of the electorate has been ironed out through the Council, appointed Commissioners, an elected parliament and the sheer volume of distant representation that these features embody. When a Europe wide electorate has had enough of the EU there is little that can be done to send the warning shots over the bows. The Council is the 'elected representatives' whose duty to the electorate is suborned to their own needs, wishes and futures. We have seen this through Heath, Jenkins, Kinnock, Major and Blair I have little doubt many other countries see the same scenario. A change in one sees little change in the direction. The EU is a bureaucracy where elections are allowed to only tinker at the margins of that bureaucracy and where stability of government is more important than the accountability of government. When one creates a Behemoth it is often difficult to control that purely from the point of view of its unwieldly bulk. The UK is similar in many ways, just on a smaller scale. As regards to the size of the EU that might bring some difficulties, but America has done well with 331.4m population. If the alternative is authoritarian Dictatorship, I will back EU Democracy every time. I agree in many ways the UK is but then you hit the important point that it is on a smaller scale. As such it can be tackled and countered. The EU is a Behemoth that may be irritated by the application of democracy but will not significantly change its size or shape. The people in the UK currently have the power to stop any government through the ballot box, that ability is lost and subsumed into the greater EU. The advanatges that the UK democracies enjoy also bring problems but then that is a price to pay to have a responsive democratic system as opposed to an immovable bureaucracy. WE could argue all day about teh US doing 'well'. |
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 25, 2022 21:16:27 GMT
From my experience with working with EU nationals I would say both. My close friend works in a factory, and he has built a 20-house rental empire on the back of renting out to EU nationals who don't mind house sharing. They normally stop a year or two, save save save, then buy a house when they return home. I've met others that get into relationships with British people and stay here. These are not people fleeing poverty or warzones, they love their countries, they are temporarily working abroad to make more money than they could back home... like our bricklayers did in 80s Germany. Brexit has changed that of course, so of course anybody currently in the country was going to apply for settled status, there was nothing to lose. I personally know that many returned home because of COVID because they didn't want to be separated from their families during a pandemic. The problem with Freedom of Movement is the uncontrolled nature of it. You are not filling skill gaps, or managing the region they can live and work in. Nobody had a clue how many were in the country or what region they were in. How the hell do you plan public services and housing around that? What was always clear, is that the 3 million figure was bullshit. |
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