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Post by see2 on Oct 22, 2022 7:59:19 GMT
In a TV debate on migrants / asylum seekers in Europe, Farage claimed that Angela Merkel Chancellor of Germany along with the EU were to blame. The truth being that Europe, not just the EU is signed up to the ECHR which obliged by law European countries to accept asylum seekers. He also stood in front of a picture of a winding crowd of people on the move inferring they were all were EU Freedom of Movement people. (FoM only applies to EU citizens) Then there was his silly comment that 40 something million citizens of EU countries could come to live in the UK. Yes, I would like to know what that "biggest lie" was. It would be further reason for declaring the Referendum null and void. 1. Angela Merkel invited anyone from Syria to come to Germany, which resulted in over a million people (who could have come from anywhere) to tramp through Europe. That was stupid. It was not a lie. 2. He didn't "infer" anything. You made the inference. 3. The number of people who "could" come to the UK under free movement is well over 40 million. He never said they would. The biggest lie of the Brexit campaign by far came from the Remain campaign. They said that households would lose an average of £2,200 pa as a result of Brexit. This was based on various mistakes - which were pointed out at the time (though not by the BBC of course). The BBC were too busy complaining about the £350 million a week claim from Leave.eu, which was an exaggeration of £4 billion - the £2,200 claim was an exaggeration of about £80 billion. 1. That doesn't compute. I would like to see some reference to that claim in order to fully understand what went on. 2. He was in the middle of fighting for Brexit, what else could he have been referring to? (the intent to send a message is often too subtle for some and too easy for others) 3. Yes 400 million plus. So why even mention such an obviously silly point if it wasn't an attempt to mislead some people? ("could" can be taken as suggesting it might happen or a massive overwhelming influx of FoM migrants might happen) You might be right over the numbers I honestly don't know. I might do the research on them. Can you tell me where you got your figures from? But for me the biggest lie was the claim that the EU was run by unelected people, this apparently registered so deep that I was repeatedly clarifying the issue right up to the point where Covid became the issue of the day. |
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 23, 2022 0:47:48 GMT
Maybe you could tell me one of the "Lies" that Farage told about Brexit. I can't think of any. If you're thinking of the "£350 million claim on the bus" then you're wrong because that was nothing to do with Farage. That was Vote Leave - different campaign. And the biggest lie told about Brexit was told by the Remain campaign. You probably don't even know which it was. In a TV debate on migrants / asylum seekers in Europe, Farage claimed that Angela Merkel Chancellor of Germany along with the EU were to blame. The truth being that Europe, not just the EU is signed up to the ECHR which obliged by law European countries to accept asylum seekers. He also stood in front of a picture of a winding crowd of people on the move inferring they were all were EU Freedom of Movement people. (FoM only applies to EU citizens) Then there was his silly comment that 40 something million citizens of EU countries could come to live in the UK. Yes, I would like to know what that "biggest lie" was. It would be further reason for declaring the Referendum null and void. When did you decide which way you were going to vote? Be honest, did you already know, or was it after listening to the campaigns? |
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Post by see2 on Oct 23, 2022 15:14:43 GMT
In a TV debate on migrants / asylum seekers in Europe, Farage claimed that Angela Merkel Chancellor of Germany along with the EU were to blame. The truth being that Europe, not just the EU is signed up to the ECHR which obliged by law European countries to accept asylum seekers. He also stood in front of a picture of a winding crowd of people on the move inferring they were all were EU Freedom of Movement people. (FoM only applies to EU citizens) Then there was his silly comment that 40 something million citizens of EU countries could come to live in the UK. Yes, I would like to know what that "biggest lie" was. It would be further reason for declaring the Referendum null and void. When did you decide which way you were going to vote? Be honest, did you already know, or was it after listening to the campaigns? You appear to be edging towards people having made up their minds before all the propaganda. That would of course be true for many, maybe even for most, but it would not rule out the those who were persuaded by propaganda. Other than that, I was pro EU, I am still pro EU and I believe the future lies with the EU. I absolutely accept the outcome of the referendum. Which doesn't stop me having a go at Brexit voters occasionally  |
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 23, 2022 20:38:19 GMT
When did you decide which way you were going to vote? Be honest, did you already know, or was it after listening to the campaigns? You appear to be edging towards people having made up their minds before all the propaganda. That would of course be true for many, maybe even for most, but it would not rule out the those who were persuaded by propaganda. Other than that, I was pro EU, I am still pro EU and I believe the future lies with the EU. I absolutely accept the outcome of the referendum. Which doesn't stop me having a go at Brexit voters occasionally I'm not edging, I'm telling it how it is. I have never heard one single Remain voter say they made their mind up during the campaign, yet they spout arrogant, self-righteous bullshit that Leave was won based on people being conned. Leave won because millions and millions of people had their lives negatively affected by Freedom of Movement. If you don't live in that world then you won't understand. If you work in unskilled / low skilled occupations and have seen your profession flooded with cheap labour... who more important live in a way in which they can afford to work for peanuts (ie house sharing, importing everything etc)... then NO Freedom of Movement does not work for you!! You can bury your head in the sand and pretend people were conned, but how does that help your ultimate goal of rejoining? |
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Post by see2 on Oct 24, 2022 10:29:37 GMT
You appear to be edging towards people having made up their minds before all the propaganda. That would of course be true for many, maybe even for most, but it would not rule out the those who were persuaded by propaganda. Other than that, I was pro EU, I am still pro EU and I believe the future lies with the EU. I absolutely accept the outcome of the referendum. Which doesn't stop me having a go at Brexit voters occasionally I'm not edging, I'm telling it how it is. I have never heard one single Remain voter say they made their mind up during the campaign, yet they spout arrogant, self-righteous bullshit that Leave was won based on people being conned. Leave won because millions and millions of people had their lives negatively affected by Freedom of Movement. If you don't live in that world then you won't understand. If you work in unskilled / low skilled occupations and have seen your profession flooded with cheap labour... who more important live in a way in which they can afford to work for peanuts (ie house sharing, importing everything etc)... then NO Freedom of Movement does not work for you!! You can bury your head in the sand and pretend people were conned, but how does that help your ultimate goal of rejoining? "cheap labour" an exaggeration. Highest employment rate since 1982, Minimum wage eliminating some of the lowest pay. Pluss many positives which were the reason that the Conservatives couldn't win the 2010 election outright. Err, not entirely "as it is", and beyond that I have no interest in your strongly opinionated post. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 24, 2022 12:54:51 GMT
The biggest lie was made by the Remain campaign - that the average household would lose "2,200 per annum" if we leave the EU. It's based on their predicted reduction of GDP of over 3%, which used the discredited gravity model of international trade. It also assumes we lose most of our trade with the EU, which is obviously nonsense. And it conflates GDP with total annual income - a schoolboy error. There were a few more errors but that's enough to make it by far the biggest lie in the whole Brexit campaign.
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Post by see2 on Oct 24, 2022 13:38:17 GMT
The biggest lie was made by the Remain campaign - that the average household would lose "2,200 per annum" if we leave the EU. It's based on their predicted reduction of GDP of over 3%, which used the discredited gravity model of international trade. It also assumes we lose most of our trade with the EU, which is obviously nonsense. And it conflates GDP with total annual income - a schoolboy error. There were a few more errors but that's enough to make it by far the biggest lie in the whole Brexit campaign. Such "lies" could only be opinions because no proof was or could be offered. The lie that the EU is run by unelected people HAS been disproved, and the evidence HAS always been there. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 24, 2022 13:40:20 GMT
The biggest lie was made by the Remain campaign - that the average household would lose "2,200 per annum" if we leave the EU. It's based on their predicted reduction of GDP of over 3%, which used the discredited gravity model of international trade. It also assumes we lose most of our trade with the EU, which is obviously nonsense. And it conflates GDP with total annual income - a schoolboy error. There were a few more errors but that's enough to make it by far the biggest lie in the whole Brexit campaign. Such "lies" could only be opinions because no proof was or could be offered. The lie that the EU is run by unelected people HAS been disproved, and the evidence HAS always been there. How about "directly elected people"? |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 24, 2022 15:40:51 GMT
The biggest lie was made by the Remain campaign - that the average household would lose "2,200 per annum" if we leave the EU. It's based on their predicted reduction of GDP of over 3%, which used the discredited gravity model of international trade. It also assumes we lose most of our trade with the EU, which is obviously nonsense. And it conflates GDP with total annual income - a schoolboy error. There were a few more errors but that's enough to make it by far the biggest lie in the whole Brexit campaign. Such "lies" could only be opinions because no proof was or could be offered. The lie that the EU is run by unelected people HAS been disproved, and the evidence HAS always been there. Hmm it seems that elections that matter, and goodness knows they are becoming ever more irrelevant, are not part of the EU make up. The fickleness of the electorate has been ironed out through the Council, appointed Commissioners, an elected parliament and the sheer volume of distant representation that these features embody. When a Europe wide electorate has had enough of the EU there is little that can be done to send the warning shots over the bows. The Council is the 'elected representatives' whose duty to the electorate is suborned to their own needs, wishes and futures. We have seen this through Heath, Jenkins, Kinnock, Major and Blair I have little doubt many other countries see the same scenario. A change in one sees little change in the direction. The EU is a bureaucracy where elections are allowed to only tinker at the margins of that bureaucracy and where stability of government is more important than the accountability of government. When one creates a Behemoth it is often difficult to control that purely from the point of view of its unwieldly bulk. |
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Post by dodgydave on Oct 25, 2022 0:07:54 GMT
I'm not edging, I'm telling it how it is. I have never heard one single Remain voter say they made their mind up during the campaign, yet they spout arrogant, self-righteous bullshit that Leave was won based on people being conned. Leave won because millions and millions of people had their lives negatively affected by Freedom of Movement. If you don't live in that world then you won't understand. If you work in unskilled / low skilled occupations and have seen your profession flooded with cheap labour... who more important live in a way in which they can afford to work for peanuts (ie house sharing, importing everything etc)... then NO Freedom of Movement does not work for you!! You can bury your head in the sand and pretend people were conned, but how does that help your ultimate goal of rejoining? "cheap labour" an exaggeration. Highest employment rate since 1982, Minimum wage eliminating some of the lowest pay. Pluss many positives which were the reason that the Conservatives couldn't win the 2010 election outright. Err, not entirely "as it is", and beyond that I have no interest in your strongly opinionated post. What do you do for a living? I ask because it harps back to my original point, if you weren't affected by Freedom of Movement then you simply don't understand Brexit. I'll tell you what I saw... truck drivers, fork lift drivers, warehouse / factory shift workers, and countless other professions went from being reasonably paid to minimum wage jobs. Guess what, since Brexit all those professions have seen their wages start to go back up... go figure. Personally, my wage has gone up £20,000. The other problem you seem to be blissfully unaware of is that many of these professions were taken over by an army of EU agency workers operating public service companies. So not only where they dragging the professions down to minimum wage level... they weren't even paying any tax or NI either!! Hence, a good chunk of them have gone to Germany now IR35 has forced them to pay tax and NI!! |
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Post by steppenwolf on Oct 25, 2022 6:53:47 GMT
The biggest lie was made by the Remain campaign - that the average household would lose "2,200 per annum" if we leave the EU. It's based on their predicted reduction of GDP of over 3%, which used the discredited gravity model of international trade. It also assumes we lose most of our trade with the EU, which is obviously nonsense. And it conflates GDP with total annual income - a schoolboy error. There were a few more errors but that's enough to make it by far the biggest lie in the whole Brexit campaign. Such "lies" could only be opinions because no proof was or could be offered. The lie that the EU is run by unelected people HAS been disproved, and the evidence HAS always been there. The "proof" offered was in the form of economic modelling which are obviously subject to inaccuracy. What makes it a "lie" is the number of errors that were made that led to a massively inflated figure. It was also presented as a fact by the Remain campaign and the OECD. As for the EU being run by unelected people the fact is that the EU Commission - which determines the direction of EU policy - is unelected. Its commissioners are "nominated" by the EU Council. And the president of the EU Commission is determined by some vague process. I've no idea how Ursula van der Leyen got the job. Yet the EU Commission is an extremely powerful body. If you remember, the Commission was in charge of the Brexit negotiations. That's equivalent to the UK putting the Brexit negotiations in the hands of the civil service. To be fair that's exactly what Theresa May did but that's why she got booted out. This was a job for government. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 25, 2022 7:05:24 GMT
1. Angela Merkel invited anyone from Syria to come to Germany, which resulted in over a million people (who could have come from anywhere) to tramp through Europe. That was stupid. It was not a lie. 2. He didn't "infer" anything. You made the inference. 3. The number of people who "could" come to the UK under free movement is well over 40 million. He never said they would. The biggest lie of the Brexit campaign by far came from the Remain campaign. They said that households would lose an average of £2,200 pa as a result of Brexit. This was based on various mistakes - which were pointed out at the time (though not by the BBC of course). The BBC were too busy complaining about the £350 million a week claim from Leave.eu, which was an exaggeration of £4 billion - the £2,200 claim was an exaggeration of about £80 billion. 1. That doesn't compute. I would like to see some reference to that claim in order to fully understand what went on. 2. He was in the middle of fighting for Brexit, what else could he have been referring to? (the intent to send a message is often too subtle for some and too easy for others) 3. Yes 400 million plus. So why even mention such an obviously silly point if it wasn't an attempt to mislead some people? ("could" can be taken as suggesting it might happen or a massive overwhelming influx of FoM migrants might happen)
But for me the biggest lie was the claim that the EU was run by unelected people, What lie? When did a single individual out of the 400 million plus have a vote on the shysters who control their lives? |
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Post by jaydee on Oct 25, 2022 7:26:32 GMT
The biggest lie was made by the Remain campaign - that the average household would lose "2,200 per annum" if we leave the EU. It's based on their predicted reduction of GDP of over 3%, which used the discredited gravity model of international trade. It also assumes we lose most of our trade with the EU, which is obviously nonsense. And it conflates GDP with total annual income - a schoolboy error. There were a few more errors but that's enough to make it by far the biggest lie in the whole Brexit campaign. Tell me something where do you get your info from. The Dandy or the Beano. The Treasury has published an analysis (pdf) of the implications of Britain leaving the EU and concluded that the economy would be 6% smaller by 2030, costing each household £4,300. So lets get the facts straight Would every household lose £4,300? No. The Treasury has arrived at the number by taking the annual gross domestic product of the economy, about £1.7tn. It has then assumed that the some of the benefits of EU membership – stronger trade growth, higher inward investment and improved productivity – would be lost. Would you care to correct that. And give me one benefit of leaving the EU |
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Post by jaydee on Oct 25, 2022 7:29:49 GMT
1. That doesn't compute. I would like to see some reference to that claim in order to fully understand what went on. 2. He was in the middle of fighting for Brexit, what else could he have been referring to? (the intent to send a message is often too subtle for some and too easy for others) 3. Yes 400 million plus. So why even mention such an obviously silly point if it wasn't an attempt to mislead some people? ("could" can be taken as suggesting it might happen or a massive overwhelming influx of FoM migrants might happen)
But for me the biggest lie was the claim that the EU was run by unelected people, What lie? When did a single individual out of the 400 million plus have a vote on the shysters who control their lives? So tell me who was not elected in the EU.. . Then tell me who voted for Truss and Sunak. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2022 11:21:46 GMT
Such "lies" could only be opinions because no proof was or could be offered. The lie that the EU is run by unelected people HAS been disproved, and the evidence HAS always been there. How about "directly elected people"? All of the EU parliament were directly elected. |
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