|
|
Post by buccaneer on Mar 23, 2023 7:00:21 GMT
Either you enjoy trolling or you live in a box. Or both. Uncomfortable facts for Eurofanatics equals trolling now. I'll wear that cap and you can resort to folly responses. This shows you have no argument. |
|
|
|
Post by oracle75 on Mar 23, 2023 7:20:21 GMT
Please offer some of those facts which prove that France and Germany want to appease Putin.
|
|
|
|
Post by oracle75 on Mar 23, 2023 7:26:02 GMT
As for the moral case for the EU, it was born out of a wish to AVOID war by encouraging trade.
I see no evidence of any change in that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Mar 23, 2023 8:02:28 GMT
Did you sleep through 2016 to 2020?
Also, they see no huge value to the United States of NATO, these well known figures include Florida governor Ron DeSantis, Marjorie Taylor-Greene, Matt Gaetz and approximately 90 known Senators and Governors, mostly on the populist / Trump wing of the party. KInd of reminds me of the cheering crowds when Chamberlin arrived back from Berlin declaring "peace in our time", in other words appeasers, those that would sacrifice a moral stand so that our blood is not spilt, but it doesnt matter about other peoples blood. But they are no different from Macron and Schulz - they were adamantly against arming Ukraine and wanted business as usual with Putin. At least the Yanks have the excuse that they are on a different Continent and after getting sucked into 2 wars in Europe in the last century probably don't want to start again. It is the behavior of politicians in europe that is the problem - bought and paid for by Russia who were quite happy to sell out half of Europe in return for cheap gas. |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Mar 23, 2023 8:47:47 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Mar 23, 2023 8:51:21 GMT
As for the moral case for the EU, it was born out of a wish to AVOID war by encouraging trade. I see no evidence of any change in that. Except it has a war on its doorstep. As with Northern Ireland, the EU has blundered into the Ukraine a country it has little understood and help provoke the bear. |
|
|
|
Post by oracle75 on Mar 23, 2023 8:55:48 GMT
The EU has used the tools they have.
They have imposed huge trade sanctions on Russia because the EU has never had a serious army because that is not what it was conceived to do.
Macron was the first and only person who actually spoke face to face with Putin to try to negotiate a deal before the advance on Kiev.
Germany was forbidden to have an army since WW2. They have only just changed the law.
Is WW3 what you want?
I have absolutely no doubt that neither you nor I really know what strategic moves or planning is happening. All we know are media headlines. And those are only what the real powers want you to know.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:59:30 GMT
I do not think that France or Germany were "adamantly against arming Ukraine", I believe they were too over cautious, but are now "on-side" and are doing their bit to support Ukraine, with Germany been one of the first countries to promise Tanks.
The actions of Putin have brought a stark realisation to some in Europe, with Germany massively increasing its defence spending and Finland and Sweden changing their neutral status by joining NATO.
My point is that unlike in America, there are no doubts in Europe as to the relevance and importance of NATO, and though Germany may have been too slow in giving military support for Ukraine, there is no doubting the importance of NATO.
|
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Mar 23, 2023 9:00:31 GMT
The EU has used the tools they have. They have imposed huge trade sanctions on Russia because the EU has never had a serious army because that is not what it was conceived to do. Macron was the first and only person who actually spoke face to face with Putin to try to negotiate a deal before the advance on Kiev. Germany was forbidden to have an army since WW2. They have only just changed the law. Is WW3 what you want? I have absolutely no doubt that neither you nor I really know what strategic moves or planning is happening. All we know are media headlines. And those are only what the real powers want you to know. And from that it is notable that both France and Germany aren't keen as the UK and US and other European nations to support Ukraine. |
|
|
|
Post by oracle75 on Mar 23, 2023 11:19:37 GMT
I dont know how you can assess how keen a country is to go to war. Do YOU want to go to war with a nuclear power?
If you want any kind of war I consider you quite mad.
The EU has no communal military policy. It is not in the aegis of the EU to make military decisions over and above national democracies. It is not a nation, it is a voluntary trading association that benefits its members.
German law restricts military development and Macron was the only head of state to go to Moscow to try to reach agreement with Putin.
I repeat. What you and I know about this war is carefully channelled through the media. So none of us can discuss this with any known truth. Let alone have an opinion. And particularly when you insist on misrepresenting your object of criticism.
So i suggest you stop trying to blame the EU for everything you dont approve of. You dont belong anymore. It will make its decisions via its members. They dont care about your opinion.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Mar 23, 2023 11:27:49 GMT
What I am refering to is the numbers of prominent Republicans including Trump who are opposed to arming Ukraine, the main reason been ( according to them ) the dangers of been sucked into a war with Russia. Also, they see no huge value to the United States of NATO, these well known figures include Florida governor Ron DeSantis, Marjorie Taylor-Greene, Matt Gaetz and approximately 90 known Senators and Governors, mostly on the populist / Trump wing of the party. KInd of reminds me of the cheering crowds when Chamberlin arrived back from Berlin declaring "peace in our time", in other words appeasers, those that would sacrifice a moral stand so that our blood is not spilt, but it doesnt matter about other peoples blood. You can swap republicans for France and Germany who were reluctant to support Ukraine because they deemed it more necessary to appease Putin. Yep, Macron's first thought was 'negotiate'. Negotiate what? There isn't anything to negotiate. Russia invaded Ukraine. Invaders out. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Mar 23, 2023 11:29:48 GMT
I do not think that France or Germany were "adamantly against arming Ukraine", I believe they were too over cautious, but are now "on-side" and are doing their bit to support Ukraine, with Germany been one of the first countries to promise Tanks. The actions of Putin have brought a stark realisation to some in Europe, with Germany massively increasing its defence spending and Finland and Sweden changing their neutral status by joining NATO. My point is that unlike in America, there are no doubts in Europe as to the relevance and importance of NATO, and though Germany may have been too slow in giving military support for Ukraine, there is no doubting the importance of NATO. If that were true then the countries in Europe would have funded their armed forces to meet the 2% NATO target but they preferred to spend that money on other things. Trump demanded that they start to shoulder their share of the burden and they just ignored him and carried on getting a free ride. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Mar 23, 2023 11:31:32 GMT
Germany was forbidden to have an army since WW2. They have only just changed the law. The current German Army was formed in 1955 |
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Mar 23, 2023 11:50:59 GMT
Germany was forbidden to have an army since WW2. They have only just changed the law. The current German Army was formed in 1955 Correct and the current Luftwaffe was formed in 1956. In the 1960's they famously bought the Lockheed F104G Starfighter.   |
|
|
|
Post by buccaneer on Mar 23, 2023 12:32:12 GMT
I dont know how you can assess how keen a country is to go to war. Do YOU want to go to war with a nuclear power? If you want any kind of war I consider you quite mad. The EU has no communal military policy. It is not in the aegis of the EU to make military decisions over and above national democracies. It is not a nation, it is a voluntary trading association that benefits its members. German law restricts military development and Macron was the only head of state to go to Moscow to try to reach agreement with Putin. I repeat. What you and I know about this war is carefully channelled through the media. So none of us can discuss this with any known truth. Let alone have an opinion. And particularly when you insist on misrepresenting your object of criticism. So i suggest you stop trying to blame the EU for everything you dont approve of. You dont belong anymore. It will make its decisions via its members. They dont care about your opinion. You Europhiles like to hide behind the shapeshifting of the EU. Acting like one minute it is federator of global regulation doing God's good work. Then in the next, when it's shown to be geopolitical piss weak, you claim it's a bunch of individual countries unable to do sweet fanny adam's. Fact: Germany and France have dragged their heels over support of Ukraine. In fact, the first thing Germany did send Ukraine when it got invaded by Russia, was 5000 fucking helmets! What a piss take that was. You don't like awkward facts when Macron thought he could woo and appease Putin with the proposition of "Finlandisation" for Ukraine. You don't belong anymore yet that doesn't stop you complaining daily on here about Brexit. You don't like hearing home truths against your daily propaganda on here putting Brexit Britain down, yet when you get these awkward facts served to you, you believe I have no right to give my opinion. Sorry, doesn't work like that. You don't get carte blanche to engineer a narrative about how great the EU is and how bad the UK is since Brexit. You will be challenged on your propaganda. |
|
