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Post by see2 on Feb 16, 2023 17:28:12 GMT
So confusion reigns The natural instincts for humans is guided towards survival. That is how the brain is basically designed to function. The safest place to be is probably through friendships and showing concern for others as well as oneself. The last sentence came from the bible. You may think it didn't and you may tell me it is just your opinion, but your culture is Christian, so you inherited those views. What if Christianity had never existed? I think it would be similar to the issue of science and why it took so long to discover it. You take a lot for granted. That last sentence is commonsense, and existed long before the Bible existed. Unfortunately Christianity has been both good and bad. The history of some of the Popes is testimony to that. A major problem with religion is that some people believe they have the authority to impose their religious beliefs onto others, Iran is a present day example. That is the level religion can get lost along the way. |
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Post by Toreador on Feb 16, 2023 17:46:47 GMT
The last sentence came from the bible. You may think it didn't and you may tell me it is just your opinion, but your culture is Christian, so you inherited those views. What if Christianity had never existed? I think it would be similar to the issue of science and why it took so long to discover it. You take a lot for granted. That last sentence is commonsense, and existed long before the Bible existed. Unfortunately Christianity has been both good and bad. The history of some of the Popes is testimony to that. A major problem with religion is that some people believe they have the authority to impose their religious beliefs onto others, Iran is a present day example. That is the level religion can get lost along the way. See if you can find about the nonsense that has gone on in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Christians against christians, Moslems against christians, thousands have died; that's the shit that is religion. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 18:02:58 GMT
I was getting some parts at the plumbers the other day and when I was paying he said "You've got all female joiners there, you need half male and half female". I told him he was old fashioned and got almost got the job done, but it leaked, I couldn't get it to work. I had to go back and get what he told me I needed, apparently, in this day and age you still need a male to a female. I tried a trans male to female and it leaked.  |
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Post by see2 on Feb 16, 2023 18:13:17 GMT
That last sentence is commonsense, and existed long before the Bible existed. Unfortunately Christianity has been both good and bad. The history of some of the Popes is testimony to that. A major problem with religion is that some people believe they have the authority to impose their religious beliefs onto others, Iran is a present day example. That is the level religion can get lost along the way. See if you can find about the nonsense that has gone on in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Christians against christians, Moslems against christians, thousands have died; that's the shit that is religion. Yes, that is the damage mankind can do to and with religion. I once watched a video that was a big mistake on my part. I saw a young woman who appeared to be in her late teens, appealing to the men who were dragging her along saying "please don't kill me", she was part buried in the ground and stoned to death. The final blow was delivered by one of the men as he held what looked like a large piece of concrete, which he used to crush her skull. Just how much that had to do with religious beliefs or simply the sickness of men I don't know, but given that Iran has only relatively recently stopped the practice of stoning people to death, I can't help thinking that religion had something to do with it. |
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Post by Steve on Feb 16, 2023 18:22:27 GMT
He does? Please don't say you're relying on that old Testament that calls for killing men, women and little boys and abusing girls because frankly that is full of shit. I do not know what you mean by abuse. it is a very vague and subjective term generally used when someone does not have a coherent argument to offer. This is the way the bible advises one figures out if something is good or bad.
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Just read Numbers 31, utterly disgusting |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 16, 2023 20:33:42 GMT
The last sentence came from the bible. You may think it didn't and you may tell me it is just your opinion, but your culture is Christian, so you inherited those views. What if Christianity had never existed? I think it would be similar to the issue of science and why it took so long to discover it. You take a lot for granted. That last sentence is commonsense, and existed long before the Bible existed. Unfortunately Christianity has been both good and bad. The history of some of the Popes is testimony to that. A major problem with religion is that some people believe they have the authority to impose their religious beliefs onto others, Iran is a present day example. That is the level religion can get lost along the way. The word religion used to only apply to Christianity. Now it is used to cover all sorts of things so if you pick a specific example and expect me to think there is a general rule then I have to say it is utter bollox thinking. |
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Post by Ripley on Feb 16, 2023 20:46:37 GMT
Yes, it appears to be the case that realism is overtaking religion. Nevertheless there are many people who have an emotional need to believe in the existence of God. I suspect the same goodness in mankind that created the goodness in god will create a good side of society wherever religion loses control of society. Well what happens when that happens is people lose their bearing and will often go mad. It seems to be happening on a vast scale around Western societies. A lot of people seem to be killing themselves and others. Are you sure this realism is a good thing? I'm late to this conversation but do you really think that realism is worse than deluding oneself with a fantasy? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 16, 2023 21:08:36 GMT
Well what happens when that happens is people lose their bearing and will often go mad. It seems to be happening on a vast scale around Western societies. A lot of people seem to be killing themselves and others. Are you sure this realism is a good thing? I'm late to this conversation but do you really think that realism is worse than deluding oneself with a fantasy? I was not discussing fantasy. I was saying without any moral reference point the hapless atheist will cling on to all manner of false idols. Like say one alternative is the green religion where the philosophy is nature knows best. You take that too literally and you turn into a fruitcake. It is my experience the average Christian is more psychologically balanced than the average atheist. Why this is so I can not prove, but it is an observation I have made. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 21:25:22 GMT
Calvin sums it up for me:
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Post by Toreador on Feb 16, 2023 21:31:12 GMT
I'm late to this conversation but do you really think that realism is worse than deluding oneself with a fantasy? I was not discussing fantasy. I was saying without any moral reference point the hapless atheist will cling on to all manner of false idols. Like say one alternative is the green religion where the philosophy is nature knows best. You take that too literally and you turn into a fruitcake. It is my experience the average Christian is more psychologically balanced than the average atheist. Why this is so I can not prove, but it is an observation I have made. Jeez and you wonder why you get a reputation for talking shite. I've been an atheist since I was about 14. Since the age of five I attended Sunday School, morning religious assemblies, RI classes and attended Bible classes run by senior church members. If I'm invited to a church christening or wedding I attend out of respect for those receiving the service. One thing I wouldn't need, unlike the vicar and most of the congregation, are the hymn lyrics, I can remember those as well as I can remember Baa-baa black sheep from some 80 years ago. When I see the clergy having to use hymn sheets I know it's all a sham. |
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Post by Ripley on Feb 16, 2023 21:45:29 GMT
I'm late to this conversation but do you really think that realism is worse than deluding oneself with a fantasy? I was not discussing fantasy. I was saying without any moral reference point the hapless atheist will cling on to all manner of false idols. Like say one alternative is the green religion where the philosophy is nature knows best. You take that too literally and you turn into a fruitcake. It is my experience the average Christian is more psychologically balanced than the average atheist. Why this is so I can not prove, but it is an observation I have made. I don't agree with your assertion that atheists are without any moral reference point. That argument is both judgmental and facile. Religion would like you to believe that atheists are amoral, but it is just not the case. Morality is a social contract that did not evolve from religion and can stand alone outside of religion. I think it's quite a leap to link 'green religion' with atheism. Is it not possible for religious people to also care about how we humans are treating the earth? Your comments on 'green religion' sound just like the utterances of Christian apologist Bill Muehlenberg. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 16, 2023 22:04:48 GMT
I was not discussing fantasy. I was saying without any moral reference point the hapless atheist will cling on to all manner of false idols. Like say one alternative is the green religion where the philosophy is nature knows best. You take that too literally and you turn into a fruitcake. It is my experience the average Christian is more psychologically balanced than the average atheist. Why this is so I can not prove, but it is an observation I have made. I don't agree with your assertion that atheists are without any moral reference point. That argument is both judgmental and facile. Religion would like you to believe that atheists are amoral, but it is just not the case. Morality is a social contract that did not evolve from religion and can stand alone outside of religion. I think it's quite a leap to link 'green religion' with atheism. Is it not possible for religious people to also care about how we humans are treating the earth? Your comments on 'green religion' sound just like the utterances of Christian apologist Bill Muehlenberg. How do you distinguish between moral and amoral? |
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Post by Ripley on Feb 16, 2023 22:11:20 GMT
I don't agree with your assertion that atheists are without any moral reference point. That argument is both judgmental and facile. Religion would like you to believe that atheists are amoral, but it is just not the case. Morality is a social contract that did not evolve from religion and can stand alone outside of religion. I think it's quite a leap to link 'green religion' with atheism. Is it not possible for religious people to also care about how we humans are treating the earth? Your comments on 'green religion' sound just like the utterances of Christian apologist Bill Muehlenberg. How do you distinguish between moral and amoral? A moral person is one who conforms to accepted standards of ethical behavior. An amoral person is one who does not. Granted, people may differ over what those standards should be, but it is generally accepted that one should be honest in one's dealings with others, etc., |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 16, 2023 23:11:26 GMT
How do you distinguish between moral and amoral? A moral person is one who conforms to accepted standards of ethical behavior. An amoral person is one who does not. Granted, people may differ over what those standards should be, but it is generally accepted that one should be honest in one's dealings with others, etc., As I was saying previously, these standards are acceptable because our society has a Christian heritage. I expect the longer it becomes unpractised the more the body of opinion will deviate from the Christian norm. Kind of like a random walk, as one would think of it in physics. |
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Post by Ripley on Feb 17, 2023 1:18:33 GMT
A moral person is one who conforms to accepted standards of ethical behavior. An amoral person is one who does not. Granted, people may differ over what those standards should be, but it is generally accepted that one should be honest in one's dealings with others, etc., As I was saying previously, these standards are acceptable because our society has a Christian heritage. I expect the longer it becomes unpractised the more the body of opinion will deviate from the Christian norm. Kind of like a random walk, as one would think of it in physics. Evolutionary biologists and cultural anthropologists beg to differ. Morality evolved prior to religion and is independent from religion, but religion is dependent on human morality. "Which came first, religion or morality? Listening to religious people, you’d hear how people need religion’s instructions, or else we’d be morally clueless. God comes first, then God’s Law comes to humanity, and only then can people be good. We are a highly social species, using social structures like monogamy, family, clan, and tribe. Our ancestors were using these structures at least 500,000 years ago. If you were suddenly plucked from your life and sent back in time to live with people in Indonesia about 15,000 years ago (or even Ethiopia 150,000 years ago), you would be able to figure out what is going on. The basic social roles, responsibilities, and civil rules would seem somewhat familiar to you, and you’d fit in pretty fast. How is that possible? Cultural anthropologists have long recognized how all human societies have similar basic norms of moral conduct. Marc Hauser, professor of evolutionary biology at Harvard University, has just published a paper about additional studies showing that people’s moral intuitions do not vary much across different religions all around the world. From an evolutionary perspective, that means that human morality is very old — old enough to pre-date any religion that exists today. Furthermore, basic morality is highly resistant to religious influence — most people easily reject religious rules that violate their basic moral intuitions. Rather, religions all tend to confirm and support human morality, because that essential morality sustains our schemes of social cooperation.Hauser concludes that “… religion cannot be the ultimate source of intra-group cooperation. Cooperation is made possible by a suite of mental mechanisms that are not specific to religion. Moral judgments depend on these mechanisms and appear to operate independently of one’s religious background. However, although religion did not originally emerge as a biological adaptation, it can play a role in both facilitating and stabilizing cooperation within groups, and as such, could be the target of cultural selection.” [ read the entire article here… ] The rich diversity of supernatural fantasies hides their common function: to enhance willing obedience. Religion did not evolve independently from, or earlier than, our moral capacities. Morality is independent from religion, while religion is dependent on human morality. And that’s a good thing."~John Shook centerforinquiry.org/blog/morality_evolved_first_long_before_religion/ |
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