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Post by see2 on Jan 19, 2023 10:03:33 GMT
I tend to agree with your post but, I expected to see some clear advantages coming our way when we left which may have, but if so I must have missed them. What I have seen is a 4 year struggle just to leave, and still not completely clear and free. The reason you are seeing those struggles is because people like Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon and remain MPs are opposing most of the benefits that progress would bring, they want 'instant'.
There is no instant, it will take years, and even longer while we have the likes of Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon constantly holding back progress.
As for being 'completely clear and free', that might never happen, simply because the EU is not our 'enemy' and the UK isn't theirs.
We will need to work together for the benefit of both the EU and UK on certain aspect, especially trade, so 'no' we will never be completely clear and free.
Just for clarification, can you give an example where "Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon" actually held back progress on Brexit? |
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Post by om15 on Jan 19, 2023 10:08:54 GMT
I really struggle to believe that people genuinely think that paying £12 Billion per annum to be ruled by Germans (I remember Mrs Merkel smugly telling everyone that she would set quotas for immigration) is good for the United Kingdom. Yes, trade is important and it is possible that cheese exports have suffered, but I don't think that we should rejoin because of that.
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 19, 2023 10:14:20 GMT
The reason you are seeing those struggles is because people like Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon and remain MPs are opposing most of the benefits that progress would bring, they want 'instant'.
There is no instant, it will take years, and even longer while we have the likes of Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon constantly holding back progress.
As for being 'completely clear and free', that might never happen, simply because the EU is not our 'enemy' and the UK isn't theirs.
We will need to work together for the benefit of both the EU and UK on certain aspect, especially trade, so 'no' we will never be completely clear and free.
Just for clarification, can you give an example where "Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon" actually held back progress on Brexit? Here you go. Mr. "Free Movement of Principles" himself. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 19, 2023 10:20:13 GMT
The reason you are seeing those struggles is because people like Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon and remain MPs are opposing most of the benefits that progress would bring, they want 'instant'.
There is no instant, it will take years, and even longer while we have the likes of Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon constantly holding back progress.
As for being 'completely clear and free', that might never happen, simply because the EU is not our 'enemy' and the UK isn't theirs.
We will need to work together for the benefit of both the EU and UK on certain aspect, especially trade, so 'no' we will never be completely clear and free.
Just for clarification, can you give an example where "Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon" actually held back progress on Brexit? Sturgeon
The glaringly obvious one is Sturgeon wanting to break up the UK so Scotland can rejoin the EU, I'd say that was hindering any progress, it's clear her loyalty lies with the EU.
Ed Davy
“Everyone knows we’re pro-European, we’ve never hid that.”
The Liberal Democrats have been broadly understood to have opposed Brexit, however Mr Davey failed to explain if his party would plan to undermine the European Referendum by launching a bid to rejoin the EU single market.
Starmer
He will not come right out and say 'I/the Labour party have no intentions of rejoining the EU'.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 19, 2023 10:45:26 GMT
I really struggle to believe that people genuinely think that paying £12 Billion per annum to be ruled by Germans (I remember Mrs Merkel smugly telling everyone that she would set quotas for immigration) is good for the United Kingdom. Yes, trade is important and it is possible that cheese exports have suffered, but I don't think that we should rejoin because of that. I agree, but I think that the whole "Export difficulty" thing is nonsense. Any properly run company that exports to the EU will have got a grip of the paperwork by now and the process is the same every time so it's largely a cut & paste exercise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 10:52:46 GMT
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. I voted leave, and I knew at least the first '10 years' were going to be rocky.
I don't believe most intelligent people thought for one moment you could be members of the EU for over 43 years and expect to migrate overnight.
We still have years of rocky roads ahead of us, we are still entwined with the EU, some of which will take years to unravel.
But while we have people who want to hold us back, and those willing to sabotage progress, it will take even longer.
Starmer will not step up and categorically say out loud ... 'I have no intentions of rejoining the EU', he just can't say it.
He hopes like others we can sneak back in by the backdoor, so while you have people like him in power, Brexit will be 'damaged'.
No one wants to sabotage progress. We just have different ideas as to whether any damage is temporary or permanent or whether there is any at all, and thus different ideas about how to fix it or even if it needs fixing. And lots of people who voted for Brexit thought in terms of immediate benefits. You might think they are not intelligent but there were many of them. Insofar as Starmer goes, I have always said he is never to be trusted by anyone if they have any sense. He has proven a willingness to lie to get elected already. But if aligning with the single market and cutting red tape at the borders is a way to undo some of the damage and thus make positive progress as a nation, that is a valid thing for those who believe in that to argue for. However much you might not like it, does not make them anti-British. They merely disagree with you on how to bring about positive economic progress. You seem to accept that things will be rocky for a decade or so. I note that no one in the leave campaign ever said that at the time. But your acceptance of things being rocky is an acceptance of someone's job lost, of someone else's business going bust, and of yet someone else ending up homeless. Thats what economic rockiness means at the sharp end. I do question whether it is worth it because I am struggling to see the economic benefits at the end of it all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 10:58:23 GMT
Just for clarification, can you give an example where "Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon" actually held back progress on Brexit? Sturgeon
The glaringly obvious one is Sturgeon wanting to break up the UK so Scotland can rejoin the EU, I'd say that was hindering any progress, it's clear her loyalty lies with the EU.
Ed Davy
“Everyone knows we’re pro-European, we’ve never hid that.”
The Liberal Democrats have been broadly understood to have opposed Brexit, however Mr Davey failed to explain if his party would plan to undermine the European Referendum by launching a bid to rejoin the EU single market.
Starmer
He will not come right out and say 'I/the Labour party have no intentions of rejoining the EU'.
Sturgeon's loyalty is to Scotland. That is obvious, if unwelcome to you. She is representing and leading a nation and its people which voted against Brexit by a convincing margin after all. We all know the Lib Dems are pro-European. Millions of people are and it is therefore democratically right to have a party who represents their views. And Starmer is a proven liar. Trust him at your peril. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 19, 2023 11:04:40 GMT
I voted leave, and I knew at least the first '10 years' were going to be rocky.
I don't believe most intelligent people thought for one moment you could be members of the EU for over 43 years and expect to migrate overnight.
We still have years of rocky roads ahead of us, we are still entwined with the EU, some of which will take years to unravel.
But while we have people who want to hold us back, and those willing to sabotage progress, it will take even longer.
Starmer will not step up and categorically say out loud ... 'I have no intentions of rejoining the EU', he just can't say it.
He hopes like others we can sneak back in by the backdoor, so while you have people like him in power, Brexit will be 'damaged'.
No one wants to sabotage progress. We just have different ideas as to whether any damage is temporary or permanent or whether there is any at all, and thus different ideas about how to fix it or even if it needs fixing. And lots of people who voted for Brexit thought in terms of immediate benefits. You might think they are not intelligent but there were many of them. Insofar as Starmer goes, I have always said he is never to be trusted by anyone if they have any sense. He has proven a willingness to lie to get elected already. But if aligning with the single market and cutting red tape at the borders is a way to undo some of the damage and thus make positive progress as a nation, that is a valid thing for those who believe in that to argue for. However much you might not like it, does not make them anti-British. They merely disagree with you on how to bring about positive economic progress. You seem to accept that things will be rocky for a decade or so. I note that no one in the leave campaign ever said that at the time. But your acceptance of things being rocky is an acceptance of someone's job lost, of someone else's business going bust, and of yet someone else ending up homeless. Thats what economic rockiness means at the sharp end. I do question whether it is worth it because I am struggling to see the economic benefits at the end of it all. You have to ask yourself one simple question
Why did we have a referendum in the first place?
If we were all thriving and doing so well in the EU why did more than half the voters decide they wanted to leave?
The truth of the matter it was only the few not the many that were thriving being part of the EU, that includes MPs , and the fact most of them joined the EU gravy train when they retired, that is why they are whinging so much, losing all those EU perks and expenses.
The EU did nothing to enhance the quality or standard of living for the ordinary people of the UK.
What is happening in the UK right now is down to a global meltdown, Covid/War in Ukraine and other economic factors.
The remain opportunists have tried to put it down to Brexit .......... lol ... but of course we know that's not true.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 11:39:31 GMT
No one wants to sabotage progress. We just have different ideas as to whether any damage is temporary or permanent or whether there is any at all, and thus different ideas about how to fix it or even if it needs fixing. And lots of people who voted for Brexit thought in terms of immediate benefits. You might think they are not intelligent but there were many of them. Insofar as Starmer goes, I have always said he is never to be trusted by anyone if they have any sense. He has proven a willingness to lie to get elected already. But if aligning with the single market and cutting red tape at the borders is a way to undo some of the damage and thus make positive progress as a nation, that is a valid thing for those who believe in that to argue for. However much you might not like it, does not make them anti-British. They merely disagree with you on how to bring about positive economic progress. You seem to accept that things will be rocky for a decade or so. I note that no one in the leave campaign ever said that at the time. But your acceptance of things being rocky is an acceptance of someone's job lost, of someone else's business going bust, and of yet someone else ending up homeless. Thats what economic rockiness means at the sharp end. I do question whether it is worth it because I am struggling to see the economic benefits at the end of it all. You have to ask yourself one simple question
Why did we have a referendum in the first place?
If we were all thriving and doing so well in the EU why did more than half the voters decide they wanted to leave?
The truth of the matter it was only the few not the many that were thriving being part of the EU, that includes MPs , and the fact most of them joined the EU gravy train when they retired, that is why they are whinging so much, losing all those EU perks and expenses.
The EU did nothing to enhance the quality or standard of living for the ordinary people of the UK.
What is happening in the UK right now is down to a global meltdown, Covid/War in Ukraine and other economic factors.
The remain opportunists have tried to put it down to Brexit .......... lol ... but of course we know that's not true.
One of the primary reasons that people voted for Brexit - particularly working class people - is due to the fact that bad employers were exploiting cheap labour from eastern Europe to hold down pay, whilst landlords exploited their numbers to drive up rents. But the EU did quite a lot to enhance the standard of living for ordinary people in the UK. It facilitated easy cross border trade, effectively removed the border in Ireland which helped bring peace, gave us the Social Chapter and the working time directive, and gave us the right to live and work anywhere in Europe. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 19, 2023 11:58:37 GMT
You have to ask yourself one simple question
Why did we have a referendum in the first place?
If we were all thriving and doing so well in the EU why did more than half the voters decide they wanted to leave?
The truth of the matter it was only the few not the many that were thriving being part of the EU, that includes MPs , and the fact most of them joined the EU gravy train when they retired, that is why they are whinging so much, losing all those EU perks and expenses.
The EU did nothing to enhance the quality or standard of living for the ordinary people of the UK.
What is happening in the UK right now is down to a global meltdown, Covid/War in Ukraine and other economic factors.
The remain opportunists have tried to put it down to Brexit .......... lol ... but of course we know that's not true.
One of the primary reasons that people voted for Brexit - particularly working class people - is due to the fact that bad employers were exploiting cheap labour from eastern Europe to hold down pay, whilst landlords exploited their numbers to drive up rents. But the EU did quite a lot to enhance the standard of living for ordinary people in the UK. It facilitated easy cross border trade, effectively removed the border in Ireland which helped bring peace, gave us the Social Chapter and the working time directive, and gave us the right to live and work anywhere in Europe. I can't speak for others but here is my primary reasons.
The UK were being bullied by the EU.
We had to roll over like lapdogs.
We were losing our own Identity as a sovereign state, to be part of some delusional EU pipe dream of becoming a leading World power United Super State.
We had very little say in how and where UK tax payers money was being spent, the EU exploited the UK/London financial position as second to New York as the financial capital of the World.
That is why the EU needed our money and UK world status so much^^, I can assure you the EU didn't want us for our stunning good looks and charm.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 12:12:00 GMT
One of the primary reasons that people voted for Brexit - particularly working class people - is due to the fact that bad employers were exploiting cheap labour from eastern Europe to hold down pay, whilst landlords exploited their numbers to drive up rents. But the EU did quite a lot to enhance the standard of living for ordinary people in the UK. It facilitated easy cross border trade, effectively removed the border in Ireland which helped bring peace, gave us the Social Chapter and the working time directive, and gave us the right to live and work anywhere in Europe. I can't speak for others but here is my primary reasons.
The UK were being bullied by the EU.
We had to roll over like lapdogs.
We were losing our own Identity as a sovereign state, to be part of some delusional EU pipe dream of becoming a leading World power United Super State.
We had very little say in how and where UK tax payers money was being spent, the EU exploited the UK/London financial position as second to New York as the financial capital of the World.
That is why the EU needed our money and UK world status so much^^, I can assure you the EU didn't want us for our stunning good looks and charm.
A lot of that is tabloidesque myth making. Yes it wanted us for our money as we were a net contributor, and also for collegiate reasons as well as not wanting us to set the precedent of a member leaving, but that about it. As for any say we had, that was commensurate with the size of our nation and it's population. Not only did we have a say on that basis, we had a veto. |
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Post by om15 on Jan 19, 2023 12:14:36 GMT
I agree with all of that, together with cheap labour keeping wages low and increased demands on rented and purchased property, plus I think the UK public simply felt that our national identity was being diminished.
I worked quite extensively around Europe before I retired and came to the conclusion that the UK establishment (the Blob if you like) interpreted EU law in a very restrictive way, gold plated everything, whereas the Europeans were more relaxed and simply carried on as before.
Paradoxically it was the actions of the remainer Blob that brought about Brexit by their actions, if EU law hadn't been shoved down our throat at every turn then we might have stayed in.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 19, 2023 12:28:18 GMT
I can't speak for others but here is my primary reasons.
The UK were being bullied by the EU.
We had to roll over like lapdogs.
We were losing our own Identity as a sovereign state, to be part of some delusional EU pipe dream of becoming a leading World power United Super State.
We had very little say in how and where UK tax payers money was being spent, the EU exploited the UK/London financial position as second to New York as the financial capital of the World.
That is why the EU needed our money and UK world status so much^^, I can assure you the EU didn't want us for our stunning good looks and charm.
A lot of that is tabloidesque myth making. Yes it wanted us for our money as we were a net contributor, and also for collegiate reasons as well as not wanting us to set the precedent of a member leaving, but that about it. As for any say we had, that was commensurate with the size of our nation and it's population. Not only did we have a say on that basis, we had a veto. Straight from the horses mouth ..
European Commissioners Head of task force 'Michel Barnier'
He acknowledged that Britons felt “abandoned” by the EU and were concerned, as citizens of other European nations are concerned, by EU-related issues, including uncontrolled immigration.
Talking to French journalist Jean-Sébastien Ferjou for Atlantico, Mr Barnier said that by voting for Brexit, Britons expressed a “popular feeling”.
He said: “It is a feeling of abandonment, of not being protected enough by Europe, of no longer having a future, no more proper public services, no more factories for young people, or of being subjected to uncontrolled immigration.
“These British concerns exist elsewhere in Europe and they exist in France.”
He added that “we must understand them, listen to them and respond to them”.
** There you have it ^^ even Barnier agreed.
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Post by see2 on Jan 19, 2023 13:02:11 GMT
Just for clarification, can you give an example where "Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon" actually held back progress on Brexit? Here you go. Mr. "Free Movement of Principles" himself. Web Apr 2, 2021 · Sir Keir Starmer finally accepts Brexit as he rules out Britain rejoining EU. Even if Starmer had decided that rejoining the EU was still on the books. Be specific, in what way could Starmer and the afore mentioned actually hold back progress? IF the UK had an answer to NI then, where is it now? |
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Post by Toreador on Jan 19, 2023 13:07:10 GMT
I voted leave, and I knew at least the first '10 years' were going to be rocky.
I don't believe most intelligent people thought for one moment you could be members of the EU for over 43 years and expect to migrate overnight.
We still have years of rocky roads ahead of us, we are still entwined with the EU, some of which will take years to unravel.
But while we have people who want to hold us back, and those willing to sabotage progress, it will take even longer.
Starmer will not step up and categorically say out loud ... 'I have no intentions of rejoining the EU', he just can't say it.
He hopes like others we can sneak back in by the backdoor, so while you have people like him in power, Brexit will be 'damaged'.
I agree with most of your post, but I would make two points. 1. You are the first leaver that I have heard say it would take 10 ten years to to settle down after leaving. The only message in 2016 was all we had to do was leave and everything would be rosy. IIRC from reading forums like this, it took around 12 to 18 months for leavers to start to acknowledge there could be difficult times ahead ahead. 2. Starmer has stepped up and stated that he has accepted Brexit. I have no doubt that some improvement between the EU and the UK will be accepted by any government, Labour or Conservative, if it is economically beneficial for the UK. Don't blame leavers for that, disentangling ourselves from the EU was manifold but substantially due to the activity of Remnant politicians, people like Miller, senior ex-politicians squeaking from the saidelines and useless leaders of all parties. Parliament proved itself to be whet I have always known, useless, shambolic and not worth going to a polling booth for. |
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