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Post by Toreador on Jan 18, 2023 23:04:34 GMT
In the cases I'm telling you about, yes they would have loved to see it fail. Well I'll bow to your superior knowledge of this forum. I don't think that much of what is written on here is worth the pixels on my screen, hence why I drift off and don't post much. It certainly isn't representative of the general public and I think that's rather the point I'm making. I'd go as far as to give en opinion there are even ex-MPs who would love to see it come off the rails. |
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Post by wapentake on Jan 18, 2023 23:31:10 GMT
In the cases I'm telling you about, yes they would have loved to see it fail. Well I'll bow to your superior knowledge of this forum. I don't think that much of what is written on here is worth the pixels on my screen, hence why I drift off and don't post much. It certainly isn't representative of the general public and I think that's rather the point I'm making. Well it’s a shame that you feel that way because different views are what make a democracy in the wider world and a forum like this more interesting. Having read the above though have you ever wondered why in the original referendum the vote was to stay and the second leave,that’s what I voted in both and why? because we were being led without reference to the views of the people in to a political monolith we’d never been given the chance have our say about. The other thing you posted and me going off topic I guess you may be right about here not being representative of the general public (or more like parts of it) probably given the average age of posters on here might even make an interesting thread. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 0:35:25 GMT
Frankly the notion that opposing Brexit is anti-British IS ridiculous because it hinges upon whether you think Brexit is a positive or a negative. If you think it is damaging the country it is pro-British to oppose it. Trying to portray those who think this way as de facto traitors is itself an example of the sort of nonsense generating so much ill will. That's the point it doesn't matter what you think ... it's happened.
What difference does it make if you think its positive or negative.
The fact of the matter, it's happened, done and dusted, accept it, there is no turning back.
Constantly having a go at those who voted leave is not progressive, say nah nah nah ... Brexit isn't working nah nah nah
Instead of being constructive and saying, Ok I wanted to remain, but I'll have to get over it and move on.
Some people just can't do it, are you one?
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. |
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Post by dodgydave on Jan 19, 2023 1:44:29 GMT
That's the point it doesn't matter what you think ... it's happened.
What difference does it make if you think its positive or negative.
The fact of the matter, it's happened, done and dusted, accept it, there is no turning back.
Constantly having a go at those who voted leave is not progressive, say nah nah nah ... Brexit isn't working nah nah nah
Instead of being constructive and saying, Ok I wanted to remain, but I'll have to get over it and move on.
Some people just can't do it, are you one?
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. The UK left in 2020, and then COVID and the Ukraine war happened, which have taken centre stage over everything. If Brexit isn't given a good "clean" decade to show what life outside the EU looks like, then the bitterness will continue because "it was not given a fair chance". In case it has escaped people's notice, the entire West is now economically fucked (because of COVID / Ukraine). There might not be much left to join. Either way, rejoin is at least two decades away, so we can either engage with the EU to try to make Brexit work better, or we can complain for two decades. Personally I don't see the EU surviving another two decades because of the massive social problems the West is about to experience. I think a rival club will be created, probably with us in it. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 19, 2023 7:10:52 GMT
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. Sorry, but what damage would that be? |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 19, 2023 7:32:10 GMT
Northern Ireland?
Farming?
Fishing?
Cheese?
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 19, 2023 7:50:54 GMT
Sorry, not seeing the issue.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 19, 2023 7:51:40 GMT
Improving it to do what? - half the community in NI reject the Protocol on principle. How would you improve the relationship with the EU - or is that just code for complying with EU demands? No they don't, the majority of NI voted for pro-protocol parties. 😉 Improvement in relations would involve serious negotiations. Yes, that would involve some give and take, with probably some alignments to make things easier. Where there is no need for divergence and it is just causing issues, time to reconsider. We don't want to create red tape and obstacles, just for the sake of it. These require serious conversations, not Boris's bluster. So basically you just want to go backwards to the way things were before - no moving on and no changes. And the red tape and obstacles are already having an effect in driving up pay and conditions for British workers - so its just for the sake of it. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 19, 2023 9:25:49 GMT
When are you all going to stop discussing any possibility of the UK rejoining the EU?.
IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN.
Instead the UK should start to think about how to best survive outside it.
Not go on endlessly repeating 6 year old arguments about why we should leave, or why it was a good idea to leave.or repeating myths about the EU.
All this self justification is a complete waste of time.
Now how about discussing how to make the best of a bad decision.
And remember that there are two sides to agreements, and the UK needs the EU's agreement to work more closely together.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 19, 2023 9:31:00 GMT
That's the point it doesn't matter what you think ... it's happened.
What difference does it make if you think its positive or negative.
The fact of the matter, it's happened, done and dusted, accept it, there is no turning back.
Constantly having a go at those who voted leave is not progressive, say nah nah nah ... Brexit isn't working nah nah nah
Instead of being constructive and saying, Ok I wanted to remain, but I'll have to get over it and move on.
Some people just can't do it, are you one?
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. I voted leave, and I knew at least the first '10 years' were going to be rocky.
I don't believe most intelligent people thought for one moment you could be members of the EU for over 43 years and expect to migrate overnight.
We still have years of rocky roads ahead of us, we are still entwined with the EU, some of which will take years to unravel.
But while we have people who want to hold us back, and those willing to sabotage progress, it will take even longer.
Starmer will not step up and categorically say out loud ... 'I have no intentions of rejoining the EU', he just can't say it.
He hopes like others we can sneak back in by the backdoor, so while you have people like him in power, Brexit will be 'damaged'.
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Post by see2 on Jan 19, 2023 9:38:48 GMT
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. The UK left in 2020, and then COVID and the Ukraine war happened, which have taken centre stage over everything. If Brexit isn't given a good "clean" decade to show what life outside the EU looks like, then the bitterness will continue because "it was not given a fair chance". In case it has escaped people's notice, the entire West is now economically fucked (because of COVID / Ukraine). There might not be much left to join. Either way, rejoin is at least two decades away, so we can either engage with the EU to try to make Brexit work better, or we can complain for two decades. Personally I don't see the EU surviving another two decades because of the massive social problems the West is about to experience. I think a rival club will be created, probably with us in it. I tend to agree with your post but, I expected to see some clear advantages coming our way when we left which may have, but if so I must have missed them. What I have seen is a 4 year struggle just to leave, and still not completely clear and free. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 19, 2023 9:47:51 GMT
Starmer is being realistic.
The UK cannot and will not rejoin the EU for at least a generation.
But he recognises some of the problems leaving has caused and wants to work to correct them.
After all the only thing the ultra leaver UK Tory government has done to start to rebuild the UK as a lone state is...pretty much nothing that it couldn't have done while in the EU.
So even Moggie couldn't find any benefits to leaving (other than his own pay rise for having a new label) and the Tory Brexit government still can't justify leaving.
But at least Starmer is looking for the flakes of gold buried in the mud of the landslide.
. The Tory government which trumpeted such buried treasure has yet to even begun to look for opportunities.
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Post by see2 on Jan 19, 2023 9:52:27 GMT
The point is, if we want Britain to succeed how do we mitigate the damage Brexit has caused? Wanting to do that, or even wanting to rejoin for those who think that would help us most, is not being anti-British. I voted leave, and I knew at least the first '10 years' were going to be rocky.
I don't believe most intelligent people thought for one moment you could be members of the EU for over 43 years and expect to migrate overnight.
We still have years of rocky roads ahead of us, we are still entwined with the EU, some of which will take years to unravel.
But while we have people who want to hold us back, and those willing to sabotage progress, it will take even longer.
Starmer will not step up and categorically say out loud ... 'I have no intentions of rejoining the EU', he just can't say it.
He hopes like others we can sneak back in by the backdoor, so while you have people like him in power, Brexit will be 'damaged'.
I agree with most of your post, but I would make two points. 1. You are the first leaver that I have heard say it would take 10 ten years to to settle down after leaving. The only message in 2016 was all we had to do was leave and everything would be rosy. IIRC from reading forums like this, it took around 12 to 18 months for leavers to start to acknowledge there could be difficult times ahead ahead. 2. Starmer has stepped up and stated that he has accepted Brexit. I have no doubt that some improvement between the EU and the UK will be accepted by any government, Labour or Conservative, if it is economically beneficial for the UK. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 19, 2023 9:53:59 GMT
The UK left in 2020, and then COVID and the Ukraine war happened, which have taken centre stage over everything. If Brexit isn't given a good "clean" decade to show what life outside the EU looks like, then the bitterness will continue because "it was not given a fair chance". In case it has escaped people's notice, the entire West is now economically fucked (because of COVID / Ukraine). There might not be much left to join. Either way, rejoin is at least two decades away, so we can either engage with the EU to try to make Brexit work better, or we can complain for two decades. Personally I don't see the EU surviving another two decades because of the massive social problems the West is about to experience. I think a rival club will be created, probably with us in it. I tend to agree with your post but, I expected to see some clear advantages coming our way when we left which may have, but if so I must have missed them. What I have seen is a 4 year struggle just to leave, and still not completely clear and free. The reason you are seeing those struggles is because people like Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon and remain MPs are opposing most of the benefits that progress would bring, they want 'instant'.
There is no instant, it will take years, and even longer while we have the likes of Starmer/Davy/Sturgeon constantly holding back progress.
As for being 'completely clear and free', that might never happen, simply because the EU is not our 'enemy' and the UK isn't theirs.
We will need to work together for the benefit of both the EU and UK on certain aspect, especially trade, so 'no' we will never be completely clear and free.
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 19, 2023 9:59:04 GMT
Improving it to do what? - half the community in NI reject the Protocol on principle. How would you improve the relationship with the EU - or is that just code for complying with EU demands? No they don't, the majority of NI voted for pro-protocol parties. 😉 Improvement in relations would involve serious negotiations. Yes, that would involve some give and take, with probably some alignments to make things easier. Where there is no need for divergence and it is just causing issues, time to reconsider. We don't want to create red tape and obstacles, just for the sake of it. These require serious conversations, not Boris's bluster. Code for: The EU takes what it wants and the UK should be grateful. Do you not remember when May was considering the CU and believed that the UK would not be tied into it in perpetuity if a resolution was found on the N.Ireland "issue" the EU weaponised in the first place? That's right, Macron bragged and boasted that he'd keep the UK locked into the CU until he decided when he and his nation had got more than their fair share of UK fishing waters and all types of other concessions from the UK. Some people have short memories. The Protocol was always designed to be the tail that wagged the dog. Using the Protocol to stop the UK diverging from EU regulations and thus making it a vassal state. Trade should flow easily like it does in the CPTCCP, and shouldn't be obstructed by demand for political integration or for the need to become a regulatory superpower. The UK has a FTA with the EU. It does not need to get in bed with the EU and become subservient to please people like you who perceive upon a lot of myth that Brexit is the disaster many had hoped it would be. |
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