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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 15, 2022 2:13:05 GMT
Have a read, lefties will scoff, expected. But if the Tories fail to rid themselves of the left wing element, this is the alternative: www.reformparty.uk/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2022 16:12:50 GMT
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Post by colbops on Oct 16, 2022 16:30:52 GMT
Have a read, lefties will scoff, expected. But if the Tories fail to rid themselves of the left wing element, this is the alternative: www.reformparty.uk/More of the same doesn't seem much of an alternative |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 17, 2022 6:04:22 GMT
So what's the alternative? Both Labour and the Tories are more or less centrist, come the next election the electorate will have a choice of more of the same, or Reform UK. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2022 6:24:56 GMT
So what's the alternative? Both Labour and the Tories are more or less centrist, come the next election the electorate will have a choice of more of the same, or Reform UK. We need to start a new party - the sanity party. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 17, 2022 19:13:50 GMT
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Post by bancroft on Oct 18, 2022 9:25:04 GMT
Since we spent £372bn on COV-ID under Bojo we don't have much economic room for manouvre.
The chaps that move the markets use maths, its logic.
This leaves fiscal policy and public spending as ways of addressing it.
I can't see reductions in public spending working more likely to be fiscal measures.
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Post by Cartertonian on Oct 20, 2022 9:11:16 GMT
Morning Red
Genuine question - I'm not being partisan about it - do you genuinely believe that a true majority of the British people support the kind of libertarian, right-wing views of both the Britannia Unchained types and the Reform party? I certainly don't believe, for example, that a genuinely true majority of the British people actually support left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism.
Ergo, if you are a believer in democracy, then under no circumstances should either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism be granted access to the levers of power in this country.
I'm sorry to say it, but in my view any uncompromising supporter of either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism is proposing that an ideology supported by a small minority of the electorate should be imposed on ALL the people of this country for their own good. That is fundamentally undemocratic and paves the way for totalitarianism.
Edit:
Spotted this on Twitter - sums it up:
"Anyone still think that big majorities are a good thing? That they stabilise politics? They just give a party Carte Blanche. Get rid of the Tories but also get rid of FPTP. Collapse of the Tories will have schadenfreude, but we actually need a more balanced & complex parliament."
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 20, 2022 10:27:51 GMT
Morning Red Genuine question - I'm not being partisan about it - do you genuinely believe that a true majority of the British people support the kind of libertarian, right-wing views of both the Britannia Unchained types and the Reform party? I certainly don't believe, for example, that a genuinely true majority of the British people actually support left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism. Ergo, if you are a believer in democracy, then under no circumstances should either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism be granted access to the levers of power in this country. I'm sorry to say it, but in my view any uncompromising supporter of either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism is proposing that an ideology supported by a small minority of the electorate should be imposed on ALL the people of this country for their own good. That is fundamentally undemocratic and paves the way for totalitarianism. Edit: Spotted this on Twitter - sums it up: "Anyone still think that big majorities are a good thing? That they stabilise politics? They just give a party Carte Blanche. Get rid of the Tories but also get rid of FPTP. Collapse of the Tories will have schadenfreude, but we actually need a more balanced & complex parliament."That post makes absolutely no sense at all. First you say that neither left-wing socialism or right-wing libertarianism should be granted access to the levers of power in this country. Which is precisely what the current electoral system does. ..and then you suggest getting rid fo FPTP and I suppose replacing it with PR - which is designed to allow minority groups like left-wing socialists and right-wing libertarians access to the governing coalitions. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Oct 20, 2022 11:20:28 GMT
I suspect it will make no difference to you, Pac, since you appear to be a big fan of FPTP, but I should have added the word 'exclusive', in between 'granted' and 'access', i.e. 'granted exclusive access to the levers of power in this country'. I take your point, but in my view if there is a critical mass of libertarian right-wingers and socialist left-wingers who can garner electoral support, then they would have a right to participation in our parliamentary system because however odious their views might be, in a free country they have a right to be heard (ridiculed and derided, perhaps, but heard nonetheless). I guess we could apply Churchill's 'least worse' principle to our current system, but I still find it troubling that one party who does not enjoy majority support in the country can gain a majority of seats in our system and thus exercise exclusive control over the country. Take Boris' 'landslide' from 2019. Rounding the figures, the Tories got 44% of the vote but got 56% of the seats and were then able to impose the will of the 44% on the other 56% of the electorate. Maybe that is the 'least worst option', but I sense a combination of apathy, complacency and a wish to retain FPTP for its disproportionate advantage on the part of its supporters that mitigates against considering how we could make it better.  |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 20, 2022 15:31:03 GMT
Morning Red Genuine question - I'm not being partisan about it - do you genuinely believe that a true majority of the British people support the kind of libertarian, right-wing views of both the Britannia Unchained types and the Reform party? I certainly don't believe, for example, that a genuinely true majority of the British people actually support left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism. Ergo, if you are a believer in democracy, then under no circumstances should either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism be granted access to the levers of power in this country. I'm sorry to say it, but in my view any uncompromising supporter of either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism is proposing that an ideology supported by a small minority of the electorate should be imposed on ALL the people of this country for their own good. That is fundamentally undemocratic and paves the way for totalitarianism. Edit: Spotted this on Twitter - sums it up: "Anyone still think that big majorities are a good thing? That they stabilise politics? They just give a party Carte Blanche. Get rid of the Tories but also get rid of FPTP. Collapse of the Tories will have schadenfreude, but we actually need a more balanced & complex parliament."Afternoon Carty, Yes I genuinely believe that a majority in this country support the libertarian, right-wing views of both the Britannia Unchained types and the Reform party. Many of them won't be natural Tory voters and certainly won't see themselves as right-wing voters, but they will be disillusioned Labour voters who are absolutely sick of £billions of their tax pounds being spent on tens of thousands of illegals who cross the channel every year and the nagging feeling that ties with the EU are not being severed, in fact quite the reverse. Pro EU types will of course rubbish such claims, but the fact remains the EU and illegal immigration continue to be a big issue for many people who feel their concerns are being ignored, which is why support for Reform UK is surging. I am not an uncompromising right-wing voter, but I am an unashamed patriot which many on the left of the political spectrum consider to be far right. I will vote for the party who I think will put this country first and that's hardly likely to be the LibDems or Labour who are both pro EU pro open borders and pro mass immigration, and to be honest, on those points the Tories aren't doing very well right now either. My only gripe with Reform UK is the fact that Richard Tice supports PR, so I'm going to have to think long and hard before I vote for Reform. I think the time is right for a new party, a centre right/right wing party and it's got nothing to do with FPTP or PR. I think people are increasingly disillusioned with the LibLabCon. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 20, 2022 16:10:04 GMT
I suspect it will make no difference to you, Pac, since you appear to be a big fan of FPTP, but I should have added the word 'exclusive', in between 'granted' and 'access', i.e. 'granted exclusive access to the levers of power in this country'. I take your point, but in my view if there is a critical mass of libertarian right-wingers and socialist left-wingers who can garner electoral support, then they would have a right to participation in our parliamentary system because however odious their views might be, in a free country they have a right to be heard (ridiculed and derided, perhaps, but heard nonetheless). I guess we could apply Churchill's 'least worse' principle to our current system, but I still find it troubling that one party who does not enjoy majority support in the country can gain a majority of seats in our system and thus exercise exclusive control over the country. Take Boris' 'landslide' from 2019. Rounding the figures, the Tories got 44% of the vote but got 56% of the seats and were then able to impose the will of the 44% on the other 56% of the electorate. Maybe that is the 'least worst option', but I sense a combination of apathy, complacency and a wish to retain FPTP for its disproportionate advantage on the part of its supporters that mitigates against considering how we could make it better. I'm a fan of FPTP because I dont see any other system that offers an improvement. There are a lot of people who believe that PR is the golden bullet to deliver a left wing government - but the last election we held under PR we ended up with UKIP being the largest party and PR has just given Italy their first fascist government since WW2. That being said, if PR was introduced at least my vote at the next election would not be wasted..  |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 20, 2022 21:12:53 GMT
Every EU state uses some form of PR. That should be warning enough.
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Post by sword on Oct 21, 2022 21:21:33 GMT
Morning Red Genuine question - I'm not being partisan about it - do you genuinely believe that a true majority of the British people support the kind of libertarian, right-wing views of both the Britannia Unchained types and the Reform party? I certainly don't believe, for example, that a genuinely true majority of the British people actually support left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism. Ergo, if you are a believer in democracy, then under no circumstances should either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism be granted access to the levers of power in this country. I'm sorry to say it, but in my view any uncompromising supporter of either left-wing socialism OR right-wing libertarianism is proposing that an ideology supported by a small minority of the electorate should be imposed on ALL the people of this country for their own good. That is fundamentally undemocratic and paves the way for totalitarianism. Edit: Spotted this on Twitter - sums it up: "Anyone still think that big majorities are a good thing? That they stabilise politics? They just give a party Carte Blanche. Get rid of the Tories but also get rid of FPTP. Collapse of the Tories will have schadenfreude, but we actually need a more balanced & complex parliament."Afternoon Carty, Yes I genuinely believe that a majority in this country support the libertarian, right-wing views of both the Britannia Unchained types and the Reform party. Many of them won't be natural Tory voters and certainly won't see themselves as right-wing voters, but they will be disillusioned Labour voters who are absolutely sick of £billions of their tax pounds being spent on tens of thousands of illegals who cross the channel every year and the nagging feeling that ties with the EU are not being severed, in fact quite the reverse. Pro EU types will of course rubbish such claims, but the fact remains the EU and illegal immigration continue to be a big issue for many people who feel their concerns are being ignored, which is why support for Reform UK is surging. I am not an uncompromising right-wing voter, but I am an unashamed patriot which many on the left of the political spectrum consider to be far right. I will vote for the party who I think will put this country first and that's hardly likely to be the LibDems or Labour who are both pro EU pro open borders and pro mass immigration, and to be honest, on those points the Tories aren't doing very well right now either. My only gripe with Reform UK is the fact that Richard Tice supports PR, so I'm going to have to think long and hard before I vote for Reform. I think the time is right for a new party, a centre right/right wing party and it's got nothing to do with FPTP or PR. I think people are increasingly disillusioned with the LibLabCon. The Conservatives never put the Country first,we have just seen that with the Truss horror show giving money to millionaires with borrowed money,where did you get the idea they ever put the Country first,my mate had to be rushed into hospital on monday he spent hours on a trolley he said it was like a field hospital dressing station,but the staff were fantastic.thats what the Conservatives have done and you are fixated with immigrants. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2022 7:32:38 GMT
The NHS - the refuge of the Labour scoundrel. Still, if Starmer is anything like Blair then he may just hand it all over to privatisation instead of expanding the private sector by stealth. We have 24 hours to save the NHS.  |
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