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Post by Steve on Jan 7, 2023 21:14:53 GMT
And there he goes again. Throws an ad hom attack ( 'backward thinking') based on a wild and false extrapolation of my post and then gets upset when it's pointed out. i gave an in depth reply to your earlier post , explained my thinking , and you attack me by attempting to belittle me without one single word engaging with my argument in the previous post. Now you claim its tit for tat . As i said steve , most threads i read posts of yours no matter the poster ends the same way , full of bullshit innuendo and a mindfield of diversions when you cant deal with facts and truth in posts. Im not upset steve. I pity you.
You must live in a horrible world full of fear and loathing. To go back to the health systems......the world turns mate wether you want to get on or not. Nothing stays the same nothing lasts for ever. I very much doubt any of the health systems are going to survive intact in any uk country as they stand without major changes. I've had worse bites from dead sheep
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Post by Bentley on Jan 7, 2023 21:17:03 GMT
Striking in the middle of a ‘ crisis ‘ and pointing to the government probably isnt the best strategy to get public support . Striking at the same time as the railways workers might not have been a good choice either Its the government thats caused the crisis,this mob have been in power for 12 years,no one else to blame. Ffs sake why don’t you read the post . It addresses the unions strategy not who’s to blame for the crisis .
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Post by Toreador on Jan 7, 2023 21:28:27 GMT
I didnt say it was free at point of use. We shoudlnt get hung up on free at point of use if its not working as things stand compared to better systems.
What im pointing out is that there are other options from the either or suggestion that its highly tax funded free at point of use health system versus the insurance funded yank system.
The French system is a hybrid.
No you didn't say the french system was 'free at the point of service' which is why it was somewhat false to position it as a challenge to my point about the NHS which is. FWIW I believe a French 'hybrid' approach would be a key part of any solution for the UK. But no party is going to find that an electable approach It's 12 years since I returned from France but at that time there was a hybrid system which I think still exists though in a different form. Instead of private insurance with private insurers the private part is now run by the government. So you pay into the equivalent to our NHS but that only covers you for chronic illnesses whilst the private insurance covers for non-chronic illness like cutting your hand off with a saw. Thay have a carded system which works very well; when we tried to have one which cost millions under Blair and was cancelled by the Tories. Our health service is not, in any way, a patch on theirs though it would be fair to say it isn't without fault.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 7, 2023 21:33:03 GMT
i gave an in depth reply to your earlier post , explained my thinking , and you attack me by attempting to belittle me without one single word engaging with my argument in the previous post. Now you claim its tit for tat . As i said steve , most threads i read posts of yours no matter the poster ends the same way , full of bullshit innuendo and a mindfield of diversions when you cant deal with facts and truth in posts. Im not upset steve. I pity you.
You must live in a horrible world full of fear and loathing. To go back to the health systems......the world turns mate wether you want to get on or not. Nothing stays the same nothing lasts for ever. I very much doubt any of the health systems are going to survive intact in any uk country as they stand without major changes. I've had worse bites from dead sheep What did you put in their mouths?
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 7, 2023 22:10:02 GMT
It was part of the evidence at the pay review body
Ah, so your figures include pension (which they won't actually receive for 30 years if they even pay into it), sickness (which they may not actually take) and London allowance and still the average London nurse earns just over £40k per annum which is actually just a smidge over the London average wage.
Which is crap considering that they probably have 10 years of self-funded study and periodic re-qualifying behind them before they even get to that pay level.
I mean, I retired on way more than that with way less qualification required. And these days, I earn more than the average London nurse before I get out of bed.
Nah, they are way underpaid.
Pension is simply deferred pay. Given how generous the NHS pension system is (and it's cost to the taxpayer) then it seems rather strange to not take account of it as part of the whole salary package. Even if you remove the pension component they are still on just under £50k which is not that far short of twice the average wage. So if £50k is not a 'decent wage' what is? - what sort of salary package are you suggesting?
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Post by Steve on Jan 8, 2023 0:16:14 GMT
Why does Pacifico continue to (at best) disingenuously push a grossly misleading comparison?
How interesting that if he really believes salaries should be looked at incl pension and overtime and antisocial shifts payments why he doesn't quote average UK salaries including same so there is an honest comparison
Because it'd shred his whole position perchance?
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 0:27:50 GMT
Why does Pacifico continue to (at best) disingenuously push a grossly misleading comparison? How interesting that if he really believes salaries should be looked at incl pension and overtime and antisocial shifts payments why he doesn't quote average UK salaries including same so there is an honest comparison Because it'd shed his whole position perchance? Why do you make argument against Pacifico based on an Ad hom . Disingenuous..not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. Are you a troll or are you being disingenuous when you complain about others disingenuousness and don’t realise it ?
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Post by Steve on Jan 8, 2023 0:33:08 GMT
Why does Pacifico continue to (at best) disingenuously push a grossly misleading comparison? How interesting that if he really believes salaries should be looked at incl pension and overtime and antisocial shifts payments why he doesn't quote average UK salaries including same so there is an honest comparison Because it'd shed his whole position perchance? Why do you make argument against Pacifico based on an Ad hom . Disingenuous..not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. Are you a troll or are you being disingenuous when you complain about others disingenuousness and don’t realise it ? Look, attacking content is not an ad hominem attack. Think playing the ball not the man. Pacifico has been challenged by me several times for links to back what we now know were his grossly misleading posts about current nurses salaries, he chose to ignore them so he had his chance and finally in response to Squeezed Middle he posts a woefully false comparison. Calling that content out for what it is is the right thing to do.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 0:38:25 GMT
Why do you make argument against Pacifico based on an Ad hom . Disingenuous..not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. Are you a troll or are you being disingenuous when you complain about others disingenuousness and don’t realise it ? Look, attacking content is not an ad hominem attack. Think playing the ball not the man. Pacifico has been challenged by me several times for links to back what we now know were his grossly misleading posts about current nurses salaries, he chose to ignore them so he had his chance and finally in response to Squeezed Middle he posts a woefully false comparison. Calling that content out for what it is is the right thing to do. Yeah it is, calling someone disingenuous is an ad hom fallacy. Doesn’t matter if you think otherwise. It is . Its your inability to a accept this that is a key reason why you have so few supporters on here and even less on the forum you moderate . You are merely a pest in here but a real liability on there. Ask PV.
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Post by Steve on Jan 8, 2023 1:05:06 GMT
No it's attacking content. Maybe as a parallel you should read the rule here 'Do not make personally directed attacks on any other user. (e.g. You are a moron); . . . You may accuse someone of making a 'moronic proposition or idea', but it is expected you will explain why you believe it to be so . . .
On the other hand the last part of your post is a clear ad hom attack. You must be so proud of your hypocrisy and sad wish to bring up matters of other forums over here
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Post by thomas on Jan 8, 2023 9:16:34 GMT
i gave an in depth reply to your earlier post , explained my thinking , and you attack me by attempting to belittle me without one single word engaging with my argument in the previous post. Now you claim its tit for tat . As i said steve , most threads i read posts of yours no matter the poster ends the same way , full of bullshit innuendo and a mindfield of diversions when you cant deal with facts and truth in posts. Im not upset steve. I pity you.
You must live in a horrible world full of fear and loathing. To go back to the health systems......the world turns mate wether you want to get on or not. Nothing stays the same nothing lasts for ever. I very much doubt any of the health systems are going to survive intact in any uk country as they stand without major changes. I've had worse bites from dead sheep The evil tories forced the French to set up a hybrid health system that is now the best in the world? Who knew?
If you are going to throw tory bogeymen jibes at anyone who disagrees with your imperfect world vision , then we may as well give up trying to hold a conversation with you and laugh.
I suspect thats what most posters do on this forum with you anyway.
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Post by thomas on Jan 8, 2023 9:21:33 GMT
No you didn't say the french system was 'free at the point of service' which is why it was somewhat false to position it as a challenge to my point about the NHS which is. FWIW I believe a French 'hybrid' approach would be a key part of any solution for the UK. But no party is going to find that an electable approach It's 12 years since I returned from France but at that time there was a hybrid system which I think still exists though in a different form. Instead of private insurance with private insurers the private part is now run by the government. So you pay into the equivalent to our NHS but that only covers you for chronic illnesses whilst the private insurance covers for non-chronic illness like cutting your hand off with a saw. Thay have a carded system which works very well; when we tried to have one which cost millions under Blair and was cancelled by the Tories. Our health service is not, in any way, a patch on theirs though it would be fair to say it isn't without fault. Thanks for yor post. No system is perfect , and the French are also currently overwhelmed with covid backlogs too.
I think it fair to say most countires are looking for the best health service they can get , at reasonable value for money. On both those measures , the uk health services fall short of France.
The frustrating thing though is when you try and ask questions and hold sensible discussion , those who dont worship at the altar of the nhs are screamed at by the usual suspects of being tory heretics.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 10:08:06 GMT
Why do you make argument against Pacifico based on an Ad hom . Disingenuous..not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. Are you a troll or are you being disingenuous when you complain about others disingenuousness and don’t realise it ? Look, attacking content is not an ad hominem attack. Think playing the ball not the man. Pacifico has been challenged by me several times for links to back what we now know were his grossly misleading posts about current nurses salaries, he chose to ignore them so he had his chance and finally in response to Squeezed Middle he posts a woefully false comparison. Calling that content out for what it is is the right thing to do. You claim is dishonest. You accused Pacifico of being disingenuous. I’m calling out your content for what it is .
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Post by thomas on Jan 8, 2023 10:23:18 GMT
Look, attacking content is not an ad hominem attack. Think playing the ball not the man. Pacifico has been challenged by me several times for links to back what we now know were his grossly misleading posts about current nurses salaries, he chose to ignore them so he had his chance and finally in response to Squeezed Middle he posts a woefully false comparison. Calling that content out for what it is is the right thing to do. You claim is dishonest. You accused Pacifico of being disingenuous. I’m calling out your content for what it is . talking about the nhs again , i see starmer was squirming on the telly about his labour leadership ledge to have public sector in public hands , not making profit for private shareholders.
Now he is talking about outsourcing the nhs to the private sector. lmfao.
I absolutely love new labour i really do. You can have so much fun with them.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 8, 2023 10:26:35 GMT
You claim is dishonest. You accused Pacifico of being disingenuous. I’m calling out your content for what it is . talking about the nhs again , i see starmer was squirming on the telly about his labour leadership ledge to have public sector in public hands , not making profit for private shareholders.
Now he is talking about outsourcing the nhs to the private sector. lmfao.
I absolutely love new labour i really do. You can have so much fun with them.
It’s already happening. Starmer is utterly useless .
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