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Post by om15 on Jan 7, 2023 18:28:58 GMT
If they do all leave, where will they go? the private health sector offers terms and conditions below those currently enjoyed by the NHS, if they choose to become HGV drivers, tree surgeons, bin men or sex workers they will find that their living standards wll drop even lower.
The reason they want more money is not so much pure greed, (although that is a factor), but because the NHS is a complex nationalised industry that doesn't work, and therefore is a stressful nightmare for those working in it.
If any Government can recognise that and privatise it then both staff and patients will get their money's worth, but at the moment the public are being held to ransom to pay even more money into a service that is failing to provide, therefore the dear nurses, our nightingales, can stuff their industrial actions and get back to doing their jobs that we pay through the nose for in our NI contributions.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 18:34:10 GMT
What is a 'decent wage' though? - GP's are on over £100k... Yep. But it takes 10 years of debt to get there. Nurses have a total package between £50 & £60k... Do they? Which ones? Because I know plenty on way less than that (and I work in London, never mind national averages). Train drivers on £65k, etc etc... Again, which ones? Do you have a link? |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 7, 2023 18:38:51 GMT
What is a 'decent wage' though? - GP's are on over £100k... Yep. But it takes 10 years of debt to get there. Nurses have a total package between £50 & £60k...
Train drivers on £65k, etc etc... Again, which ones? Do you have a link? It was part of the evidence at the pay review body 
and Train drivers |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 18:47:32 GMT
Yep. But it takes 10 years of debt to get there. Do they? Which ones? Because I know plenty on way less than that (and I work in London, never mind national averages).
Again, which ones? Do you have a link? It was part of the evidence at the pay review body
Ah, so your figures include pension (which they won't actually receive for 30 years if they even pay into it), sickness (which they may not actually take) and London allowance and still the average London nurse earns just over £40k per annum which is actually just a smidge over the London average wage.
Which is crap considering that they probably have 10 years of self-funded study and periodic re-qualifying behind them before they even get to that pay level.
I mean, I retired on way more than that with way less qualification required. And these days, I earn more than the average London nurse before I get out of bed.
Nah, they are way underpaid.
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Post by Steve on Jan 7, 2023 20:16:35 GMT
But it's not free at the point of service is it. And France has even worse messed up government finances than we do. I didnt say it was free at point of use. We shoudlnt get hung up on free at point of use if its not working as things stand compared to better systems.
What im pointing out is that there are other options from the either or suggestion that its highly tax funded free at point of use health system versus the insurance funded yank system.
The French system is a hybrid.
No you didn't say the french system was 'free at the point of service' which is why it was somewhat false to position it as a challenge to my point about the NHS which is. FWIW I believe a French 'hybrid' approach would be a key part of any solution for the UK. But no party is going to find that an electable approach |
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Post by Steve on Jan 7, 2023 20:23:39 GMT
It was part of the evidence at the pay review body
Ah, so your figures include pension (which they won't actually receive for 30 years if they even pay into it), sickness (which they may not actually take) and London allowance and still the average London nurse earns just over £40k per annum which is actually just a smidge over the London average wage.
Which is crap considering that they probably have 10 years of self-funded study and periodic re-qualifying behind them before they even get to that pay level.
I mean, I retired on way more than that with way less qualification required. And these days, I earn more than the average London nurse before I get out of bed.
Nah, they are way underpaid.
Exactly, second time he's tried that dishonest comparison. No one in common parlance compares base salaries including pension, overtime etc. They compare base salaries for an ~ 37.5 hour week. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 7, 2023 20:25:33 GMT
I didnt say it was free at point of use. We shoudlnt get hung up on free at point of use if its not working as things stand compared to better systems.
What im pointing out is that there are other options from the either or suggestion that its highly tax funded free at point of use health system versus the insurance funded yank system.
The French system is a hybrid.
No you didn't say the french system was 'free at the point of service' which is why it was somewhat false to position it as a challenge to my point about the NHS which is. FWIW I believe a French 'hybrid' approach would be a key part of any solution for the UK. But no party is going to find that an electable approach No i challenged you over your false dichotomy as i said in my original post. Told you there was other options.
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Post by Steve on Jan 7, 2023 20:32:28 GMT
My statement remains true 'Awkward truth: you can't have a National Health Service free at the point of service with USA levels of tax take. '
Which is what the Tories wish to make believe we can. You defend them if you wish by pretending I'm wrong.
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Post by thomas on Jan 7, 2023 20:41:54 GMT
My statement remains true 'Awkward truth: you can't have a National Health Service free at the point of service with USA levels of tax take. 'No cause its a heavily loaded statement that then goes on to offer a false dichotomy.
do people want an nhs free at point of use but bad in terms of services?
Or would people be open to other options that could improve services like the French system? Thats the question?
Again you "load " the debate into me being a tory supporter because im suggesting other options for the holier than thou nhs .
The snp run scotland nhs far better than labour do wales , and the nhs in scotland is operated along the old nhs style , of a centralised system of health boards , different to englands independent health trusts , and again different to wales.
Stop making "and/ or "arguments to try and close debate down a narrow alley of your own backward thinking.
There are various options .
Or can left wing liberals like you steve not do thinking outside of boxes?
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Post by Steve on Jan 7, 2023 20:44:43 GMT
You're not very good at extrapolating are you Thomas.
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Post by thomas on Jan 7, 2023 20:47:18 GMT
You're not very good at extrapolating are you Thomas. on cue , the ad hominem to try and belittle someone who is making you look silly.
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Post by thomas on Jan 7, 2023 21:00:54 GMT
My statement remains true 'Awkward truth: you can't have a National Health Service free at the point of service with USA levels of tax take. 'Which is what the Tories wish to make believe we can. You defend them if you wish by pretending I'm wrong. If i had known then in 1997 , when i voted labour , that to continue the nhs free at point of use under labours "reforms" would mean loading future generations up with PFI debt then i for one would have said no.
The cowardice of the liberal left like you is epitomised by new labour and the likes of brown , getting the grand kids to pay over the odds for stuff that you are mortally afraid to ask voters to pay for now.
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Post by Steve on Jan 7, 2023 21:01:52 GMT
You're not very good at extrapolating are you Thomas. on cue , the ad hominem to try and belittle someone who is making you look silly.
And there he goes again. Throws an ad hom attack ( 'backward thinking') based on a wild and false extrapolation of my post and then gets upset when it's pointed out. The Tories cannot deliver on their false package, that's the key debate point I'm pointing out here |
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Post by thomas on Jan 7, 2023 21:10:11 GMT
on cue , the ad hominem to try and belittle someone who is making you look silly.
And there he goes again. Throws an ad hom attack ( 'backward thinking') based on a wild and false extrapolation of my post and then gets upset when it's pointed out. i gave an in depth reply to your earlier post , explained my thinking , and you attack me by attempting to belittle me without one single word engaging with my argument in the previous post. 
Now you claim its tit for tat .
As i said steve , most threads i read posts of yours no matter the poster ends the same way , full of bullshit innuendo and a mindfield of diversions when you cant deal with facts and truth in posts.
Im not upset steve. I pity you.
You must live in a horrible world full of fear and loathing.
To go back to the health systems......the world turns mate wether you want to get on or not. Nothing stays the same nothing lasts for ever. I very much doubt any of the health systems are going to survive intact in any uk country as they stand without major changes.
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Post by sword on Jan 7, 2023 21:14:49 GMT
Striking in the middle of a ‘ crisis ‘ and pointing to the government probably isnt the best strategy to get public support . Striking at the same time as the railways workers might not have been a good choice either Its the government thats caused the crisis,this mob have been in power for 12 years,no one else to blame. |
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