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Post by Handyman on Jan 7, 2023 16:33:25 GMT
I don't know what the answer is , but there is a limit to what the taxpayers can pay or want to pay... And there is a limit to the pay and conditions that workers are willing to endure. Sure, you can ban strikes but you can't stop people from quitting when the pay is no longer worth the aggro. And that's the real problem. As someone else said: They can always get a job in Greggs if they don't like it. Trouble is, lots of them do and I personally know of lots of ex-police officers, nurses and teachers who didn't want to quit their chosen career but felt that they had no other choice. Hell, even doctors no longer want to work in the NHS and we should be looking to address why that is rather than banning workers from airing genuine concerns. Of course people leave jobs over pay and conditions they always have, I have had more than one type of occupation during my working life I retrained more then once, but all strikes have a serious effect on other workers in many different kinds of work or going about their daily life especially when it comes to transport. Striking IMO should be the very last option I would choose, I would do as I have done move on, as I said I do not know the answer to these latest strikes but IMHO this is more of an attempt to bring down the Government to force a GE , would that solve the problems I don't think so |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 16:44:31 GMT
Except that they do and they are quitting. I know plenty of them. Telling people: "You'll get a great pension... in 40 years time" isn't going to make them put up with decades of shit and poor pay in the meantime.
Indeed, many younger public sector workers don't even join the pension these days because they either can't afford it or they just don't see it as worthwhile.
Good, well for everyone that quits, there will be at least 4 applicants waiting to take that job. The problem is that when someone quits they take their skills with them. It then takes time to bring someone else up to speed and they're less efficient while that's happening.
And of course you can't just replace a doctor, nurse, paramedic, experienced detective etc. etc because those skills take years to acquire. So when that experience is gone, it's gone.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 16:46:36 GMT
Striking IMO should be the very last option I would choose... That's the same for pretty much every worker - no one gets paid when they're on strike, hence no one goes on strike lightly. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 7, 2023 16:52:44 GMT
Striking in the middle of a ‘ crisis ‘ and pointing to the government probably isnt the best strategy to get public support . Striking at the same time as the railways workers might not have been a good choice either But this "Crisis" didn't just come out of nowhere: Many public sector workers have already been subject to a decade long pay freeze and that's just not sustainable in the current climate.
Every single public sector in this country is at breaking point. Every single one: Not enough nurses, not enough teachers, not enough care workers, not enough police etc. etc.
And that didn't come out of nowhere - it's been decades in the making. So it's a bit rich for HM Govt to cry foul when people finally have to say "Enough's enough".
This shitness didn't just happen - it was planned, or at least serially mismanaged by successive governments and that's what needs addressing.
Well I won’t deny that that but if you are going to fight a battle of attrition then choose the right place and time . Every winter for the last umpteen years there is an NHS crisis . I suspect that the nurses union officials thought that the goodwill for the nurses during COVID had a shelf life and a strike during a seasonal NHS crisis would force the government into submission . Unfortunately that seems to have ( so far) failed. imo the public is having to multitask it’s problems ..we are used to a Shitty NHS service due to COVID and this is being seen as an extension to that …except that it is deliberate and by the workers themselves . The goodwill towards the nurses is far less than they anticipated. Striking at the same time as a group of workers with much less public sympathy. Striking at a time where the public is sick with worry over prices , mortgage hikes and war. All if this compartmentalises and dilutes the public sympathy towards the nurses. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 7, 2023 16:54:15 GMT
Perhaps your false dichotomy is the problem. The French system is better than either the us or uk , but is funded different to both. But it's not free at the point of service is it. And France has even worse messed up government finances than we do. I didnt say it was free at point of use. We shoudlnt get hung up on free at point of use if its not working as things stand compared to better systems.
What im pointing out is that there are other options from the either or suggestion that its highly tax funded free at point of use health system versus the insurance funded yank system.
The French system is a hybrid.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 7, 2023 16:56:02 GMT
Striking IMO should be the very last option I would choose... That's the same for pretty much every worker - no one gets paid when they're on strike, hence no one goes on strike lightly. No
RNLI who save lives on a daily basis have no intentions of striking, and let me tell you something else if you don't already know it, lots of them are 'volunteers', yes volunteers. 'Unpaid' volunteers, they do exactly the same as any NHS worker or ambulance response team, the only difference is they do it for NOTHING.
You tell me why a bunch of life saving RNLI crew can go on dangerous missions rescuing people on a voluntary basis, yet people employed by the tax payers on a decent salary decide they don't want to save lives until they get a pay increase .... FFS ...if your life depends on those saving you getting the right amount of money, then society is morally bankrupt.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 17:10:22 GMT
That's the same for pretty much every worker - no one gets paid when they're on strike, hence no one goes on strike lightly. No
RNLI who save lives on a daily basis have no intentions of striking, and let me tell you something else if you don't already know it, lots of them are 'volunteers', yes volunteers. 'Unpaid' volunteers, they do exactly the same as any NHS worker or ambulance response team, the only difference is they do it for NOTHING.
You tell me why a bunch of life saving RNLI crew can go on dangerous missions rescuing people on a voluntary basis, yet people employed by the tax payers on a decent salary decide they don't want to save lives until they get a pay increase .... FFS ...if your life depends on those saving you getting the right amount of money, then society is morally bankrupt.
LOL! By that twisted logic, everyone should work for free since volunteers do. Meanwhile back in the real world, RNLI volunteers are able to work for free because they are adequately remunerated in their day jobs. Shouldn't everyone else enjoy the same?
...if your life depends on those saving you getting the right amount of money, then society is morally bankrupt. And you could say the same about underpaying those who do the most important work.
Indeed, I'd suggest that the moral bankruptcy is all yours.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 7, 2023 17:20:23 GMT
No
RNLI who save lives on a daily basis have no intentions of striking, and let me tell you something else if you don't already know it, lots of them are 'volunteers', yes volunteers. 'Unpaid' volunteers, they do exactly the same as any NHS worker or ambulance response team, the only difference is they do it for NOTHING.
You tell me why a bunch of life saving RNLI crew can go on dangerous missions rescuing people on a voluntary basis, yet people employed by the tax payers on a decent salary decide they don't want to save lives until they get a pay increase .... FFS ...if your life depends on those saving you getting the right amount of money, then society is morally bankrupt.
LOL! By that twisted logic, everyone should work for free since volunteers do. Meanwhile back in the real world, RNLI volunteers are able to work for free because they are adequately remunerated in their day jobs. Shouldn't everyone else enjoy the same?
LOL!
No what it means if saving lives depends on how much money you get for doing it.... then I suggest you are in the wrong profession.
I would say the same for a vegan who take a job in a abattoir .... it's not the job for you.
If you don't want to save lives unless you are on a decent wage then you are not obeying your ..
Under the Nightingale pledge 1893..
"I solemnly pledge myself to the service of humanity and will endeavour to practise my profession with conscience and with dignity. I will maintain, by all the means in my power, the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Unless I get a pay rise ^^?
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 17:22:51 GMT
LOL! No what it means if saving lives depends on how much money you get for doing it.... then I suggest you are in the wrong profession. I would say the same for a vegan who take a job in a abattoir .... it's not the job for you. If you don't want to save lives unless you are on a decent wage then you are not obeying your .. Under the Nightingale pledge 1893.. "I solemnly pledge myself to the service of humanity and will endeavour to practise my profession with conscience and with dignity. I will maintain, by all the means in my power, the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Unless I get a pay rise ^^?
Ah, so we're back to the "Vocation" excuse: It's a vocation, so you can't expect a decent wage.  Total balderdash. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 7, 2023 17:31:32 GMT
LOL! No what it means if saving lives depends on how much money you get for doing it.... then I suggest you are in the wrong profession. I would say the same for a vegan who take a job in a abattoir .... it's not the job for you. If you don't want to save lives unless you are on a decent wage then you are not obeying your .. Under the Nightingale pledge 1893.. "I solemnly pledge myself to the service of humanity and will endeavour to practise my profession with conscience and with dignity. I will maintain, by all the means in my power, the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Unless I get a pay rise ^^?
Ah, so we're back to the "Vocation" excuse: It's a vocation, so you can't expect a decent wage. Total balderdash. Yeah pretty similar as being a judge.
We expect them not to have a criminal record as long as your arm.
People go in to professions with the right qualification and expectations for that job.
We expect GPs, doctors, nurses to enter that profession in the hopes it will be for the right reason " the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
But money must be the first factor?
Where does it say that?
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 17:38:54 GMT
Ah, so we're back to the "Vocation" excuse: It's a vocation, so you can't expect a decent wage. Total balderdash. Yeah pretty similar as being a judge.
We expect them not to have a criminal record as long as your arm.
People go in to professions with the right qualification and expectations for that job.
We expect GPs, doctors, nurses to enter that profession in the hopes it will be for the right reason " the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
But money must be the first factor?
Where does it say that?
Nowhere, which is why the only one claiming that is you. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 7, 2023 17:40:25 GMT
A qualified nurse isn’t an HCA . They need to assimilate a huge body of work and be mentored and monitored until they qualify.
When you qualify you go into a particular specialty . If you ask me if they are poorly paid then I will say not always imo. If you ask me if they don’t deserve to be well paid then I will say that you do not realise how valuable they are.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 7, 2023 17:43:11 GMT
Yeah pretty similar as being a judge.
We expect them not to have a criminal record as long as your arm.
People go in to professions with the right qualification and expectations for that job.
We expect GPs, doctors, nurses to enter that profession in the hopes it will be for the right reason " the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
But money must be the first factor?
Where does it say that?
Nowhere, which is why the only one claiming that is you. Oh ok well get back to us when you or one of your loved ones dies as a result of striking NHS staff, you will be able to quote, why did they die when staff where in breach of their medical oath..
" the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Well maybe you can sue them under a 'breach of contract', the contract being ..." the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Let's hope you are never in that predicament.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jan 7, 2023 17:47:18 GMT
Nowhere, which is why the only one claiming that is you. Oh ok well get back to us when you or one of your loved ones dies as a result of striking NHS staff, you will be able to quote, why did they die when staff where in breach of their medical oath..
" the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Well maybe you can sue them under a 'breach of contract', the contract being ..." the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Let's hope you are never in that predicament.
And that's hope that the nurses haven't all left if you're ever in that predicament, eh?
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 7, 2023 18:20:54 GMT
LOL! No what it means if saving lives depends on how much money you get for doing it.... then I suggest you are in the wrong profession. I would say the same for a vegan who take a job in a abattoir .... it's not the job for you. If you don't want to save lives unless you are on a decent wage then you are not obeying your .. Under the Nightingale pledge 1893.. "I solemnly pledge myself to the service of humanity and will endeavour to practise my profession with conscience and with dignity. I will maintain, by all the means in my power, the honour and noble tradition of my profession. The total health of my patients will be my first consideration".
Unless I get a pay rise ^^?
Ah, so we're back to the "Vocation" excuse: It's a vocation, so you can't expect a decent wage. Total balderdash. What is a 'decent wage' though? - GP's are on over £100k, Nurses have a total package between £50 & £60k, Train drivers on £65k, etc etc Remember the average wage in the UK is £28k.. |
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