|
|
Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 18:18:17 GMT
Didnt i read it was waves of celtic cpeakers who came to these islands , and while they didnt completely replace the existing hunter gatherers who had lived here before , the majority of people in these islands can be traced back to european tribes that came here 4500 to 5000 years ago?
I must try and dig up the article monte. Wasnt chedder man an example of the ancient people who lived in these islands before the arrival of the celts? These were the peoples who built stonehenge and skara brae?
. In other words Celtic isn't an ethnic group it is a language group which was adopted by the people of Europe with its superior technology and common language of course and neither is anglo saxon an ethnic group , similarly its part of the germanic language disapora , but of course for headlines and simplicity it doesnt stop dna results being shown in terms of celtic or anglo saxon or whatever.
The whole of europe in terms of the native peoples are decended from the original indo european tribes that supposedly came into europe thousands of years ago , and they split apart and thier languages divided with them. French german english scottish etc are all indo european peoples , and from memory only the basques finnish and hungarians arent related to the rest of the european peoples in terms of language . perhaps these were the original inhabitants of europe ?
|
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on Feb 2, 2023 18:43:37 GMT
. In other words Celtic isn't an ethnic group it is a language group which was adopted by the people of Europe with its superior technology and common language of course and neither is anglo saxon an ethnic group , similarly its part of the germanic language disapora , but of course for headlines and simplicity it doesnt stop dna results being shown in terms of celtic or anglo saxon or whatever.
The whole of europe in terms of the native peoples are decended from the original indo european tribes that supposedly came into europe thousands of years ago , and they split apart and thier languages divided with them. French german english scottish etc are all indo european peoples , and from memory only the basques finnish and hungarians arent related to the rest of the european peoples in terms of language . perhaps these were the original inhabitants of europe ?
I'm just making the argument that the Beaker people didn't come here as Celtic speakers but they became Celtic later. They may not have come from Morocco via Portugal and Spain though rather from the Steppes. www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/21/arrival-of-beaker-folk-changed-britain-forever-ancient-dna-study-shows#:~:text=The%20study%20included%20remains%20of,museums%20since%20the%2019th%20century. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2023 7:52:17 GMT
Not at all ripley. The connections between scotland and ireland go back at least three thousand years , with three massive waves of emigration between the two countiries in that time , the last wave being of course in the 19th century from ireland to scotland.
In tam devines History of the scottish nation 1700 to 2000 , he states that at one point in the late 19th early twentieth century 25 % of scotlands central belt population was irish.
My own family , both paternal and maternal , have both irish catholic and protestant from antrim and further south , in the family , and i have family in the north of ireland still today.
When studying gaelic historical maunscripts , the biggest challenge faced by historians is finding out wether it comes from scotland or ireland. I think the scottish and irish are possibly the most similar peoples in the world .
the 2011 census was nothing unusual . Studies show over tme , most scots see themselves as scots in terms of nationality but part of the british state.....or in the past british empire.
I think that is because we recognise we went into a political and economic union with the english in 1707 , unlike ireland and wales that were both at first militarily conquered and annexed to the english kingdom , while scotland retained its national territory and national insitutions like law , church and education.
Britishness is quite divisive in scotland , because it is associated with ulster unionism. People can be happy in scotland with the union with england , perhaps dont see scotlands best interests as laying outside the british state , but absolutely abhor british nationalism and the divisive ulster unionism links.( edit to add , hence why right wing english nationalism never gets a look in ie ukip bnp brexit party)
Britishness in scotland appears to be massively different to the britishness the english appear to believe in . I think scotland is now more properly in political terms closer to , but not the same as northern irish politics without the sectariansim.
If scottish nationalism had been sectarian like in ireland , it would never have got off the ground.
Thanks for replying. Most interesting. If most Scots see themselves as part of the British state, what does that imply for Scottish independence? Do you think that the Irish would support the assertion of Scottish independence? apologies riply.
I was refferring to the old view of the union at the height of britishness in scotland in the mid twentieth century. I could have been more clearer but im often posting on here in a rush .
The point i was making is when even the majority of scots saw themselves as part of the union , they didnt abandon their scottish nationality the way certain anglo british nationalsit on here deny englishness and embrace britishness.
Over the course of the union , since its inception in 1707 , the view in scotland has swung one way to the next , from outright hostility in 1707 , rioting , and a century of warfare to end the union , to the last armed uprising in 1820 , to the political movements of the twentieth century and referendum of the twenty first.
There has always been a hardcore nucleus of scot indy supporters , and i certainly think the pendulum is swinging away from the maority being in favour of the union once again. The empire is gone , england is retreating into a right wing isolationist state with major economic and political problems , and of course many mainstream centrist scots , who were once more pragmatic about scottish independence and wanted to see its merits and what independence had to offer , are now horrified about england taking scotland out of the EU and coming behind scot indy .
I dont think its really that different from what i have read on irish history on the lead up to their independence. Obviously without the armed conflict , many things are similar , in that the majority were settled as part of the union prior to 1916 or so i read , then extreme english reaction to events led the the irish being horrified and wanting out.
ive no idea on how the irish are polling wether in favour or not , but i suspect so . I think some in and around dublin might not like a seperate scotland competing with them , but on the other hand i suspect many irish nationalists north and south are cheering it on for various reasons.
It would of course be catastrophic for northern irish unionism , whose links to england are of course through scotland in terms of the union.
Generally , the feedback we are getting is that from ireland to continental europe , the majority are supportive of scotland being independent and rejoining EFTA/EU at some point.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2023 7:58:32 GMT
of course and neither is anglo saxon an ethnic group , similarly its part of the germanic language disapora , but of course for headlines and simplicity it doesnt stop dna results being shown in terms of celtic or anglo saxon or whatever.
The whole of europe in terms of the native peoples are decended from the original indo european tribes that supposedly came into europe thousands of years ago , and they split apart and thier languages divided with them. French german english scottish etc are all indo european peoples , and from memory only the basques finnish and hungarians arent related to the rest of the european peoples in terms of language . perhaps these were the original inhabitants of europe ?
I'm just making the argument that the Beaker people didn't come here as Celtic speakers but they became Celtic later. They may not have come from Morocco via Portugal and Spain though rather from the Steppes. www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/21/arrival-of-beaker-folk-changed-britain-forever-ancient-dna-study-shows#:~:text=The%20study%20included%20remains%20of,museums%20since%20the%2019th%20century. i know monte. The point im making is the old theories of who came when and spoke what language are gradually being challenged. We know p celtic came here around the 1000 bc onwards timescale , but no one knows when gaelic came here.
Scottish and irish myth and legend holds the gaidheals came originally from scythia , around the caucasian steppe , travelled through the middle east into north africa , where an ancestor of the gaidheals is supposed to have married an egyptian princess names "scota" where our country gets its name , then up through spain to these islands.
Perhaps as you say there could be some truth in these myths.
|
|
