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Post by thomas on Jan 4, 2023 14:16:01 GMT
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Post by Ripley on Jan 27, 2023 15:56:03 GMT
I just noticed this post. A fascinating theory worthy of investigating... It is thought that, relative to Icelandic, Norwegian and Danish evolved more rapidly because of their proximity to other European language influences. Being so geographically isolated, Icelandic was less susceptible to outside language influences and is evolving more slowly. It makes perfect sense that some Gaelic words could have crept into the lexicon in the way described. That's a book I want to read.
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Post by jaydee on Jan 28, 2023 9:06:35 GMT
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Post by thomas on Jan 28, 2023 14:05:06 GMT
Hi jaydee. Am no sure of your point?
The article is talking about how the scots and irish , wether as slaves , freemen , or the woman folk who had intermarried with the scandinavians took gaelic to the scandinavian settlements of iceland back in the viking era , somethng like late 8th century to the 11 th century.
The native tongue of both scotland and ireland was the celtic languages in this period. By the 11 th century , the whole of scotland was gaelic .
There were very few old english speakers in either ireland or scotland , and regarding scotland , the middle english dialect was introduced in the 12 th century onwards by the norman french , not the anglo saxons.
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Post by thomas on Jan 28, 2023 14:07:58 GMT
I just noticed this post. A fascinating theory worthy of investigating... It is thought that, relative to Icelandic, Norwegian and Danish evolved more rapidly because of their proximity to other European language influences. Being so geographically isolated, Icelandic was less susceptible to outside language influences and is evolving more slowly. It makes perfect sense that some Gaelic words could have crept into the lexicon in the way described. That's a book I want to read. Same here ripley.
The gaelic language in both scotland and ireland has a lot of scandinavian influence , same as english . Its interesting and makes obvious sense that this influence worked both ways , and penetrated to the viking settlements in iceland.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 28, 2023 14:36:37 GMT
Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an English translation of Thorvaldur Fridrikkson's book Keltar yet.
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Post by thomas on Jan 28, 2023 14:40:53 GMT
Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an English translation of Thorvaldur Fridrikkson's book Keltar yet. Im sure there will be soon. It will make an interesting read , and help scots especially come to an understanding of a bit of our gaelic past and heritage.
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Post by thomas on Jan 28, 2023 15:13:50 GMT
Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an English translation of Thorvaldur Fridrikkson's book Keltar yet. There are legends in scottish and irish history written by culdees ,( cele de .....servant of god) of early fifth century gaels such as brendan the navigator , visiting iceland . So iceland appears to be well known to the gaelic celts long before the viking age .
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Post by Ripley on Jan 29, 2023 18:16:06 GMT
Yes, the voyage of St. Brendan was in the fifth or early sixth century, wasn’t it, but they didn’t settle in Iceland.
The 13th century Book of Settlements ( Landnámabók ) names the first settler of Iceland as Ingólfr Arnarson, around 874 CE, almost 100 years after the Viking raid at Lindisfarne.
Prior to that, Iceland had been discovered by explorers Naddodd the Viking who was blown off course on his way to the Faroes in 830 CE, and Gardar the Swede who was blown off course in the 860s CE. Gardar, who lived in Denmark, was on his way to the Hebrides when he encountered a storm which threw him off course into the Atlantic. Both of these men established small settlements in Iceland but soon left. Gardar is said to have left one of his crew behind with a slave and bondswoman. (I’m not sure what distinguishes a slave from a bondswoman, or if these descriptions apply to one or two women). Since by this time the Vikings had been raiding for almost 100 years, it’s entirely possible the slave and bondswoman were Irish or Scottish.
Floki Vilgerðarson came along around 868 CE. Iceland was his intended destination and he stayed longer than the other two. He named Iceland and intended to colonize it but on his return to Norway, he described it as an inhospitable place. By contrast, two of Floki’s crew, Herjolf and Thorolf, painted a rosy picture of Iceland, reporting that the blades of grass were almost dripping with butter, and they are credited with encouraging interest in immigration among people wanting to escape the tyranny of king Harald Finehair/ Fairhair 872-930 CE.
Ingólfr Arnarson and his foster-brother Hjörleifr left Norway for Iceland at this time because of a blood-feud, bringing with them some Irish slaves. On arrival in Iceland, they are said to have encountered Irish monks who then left because they preferred not to live among heathens. If only we knew when those monks had arrived.
Hjörleifr and his party were killed by their slaves who were in turn killed by Ingólfr. Having avenged his brother’s murder, Ingólfr founded the settlement in 874 CE which later became Reykjavík.
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2023 8:33:05 GMT
Yes, the voyage of St. Brendan was in the fifth or early sixth century, wasn’t it, but they didn’t settle in Iceland. The 13th century Book of Settlements ( Landnámabók ) names the first settler of Iceland as Ingólfr Arnarson, around 874 CE, almost 100 years after the Viking raid at Lindisfarne. Prior to that, Iceland had been discovered by explorers Naddodd the Viking who was blown off course on his way to the Faroes in 830 CE, and Gardar the Swede who was blown off course in the 860s CE. Gardar, who lived in Denmark, was on his way to the Hebrides when he encountered a storm which threw him off course into the Atlantic. Both of these men established small settlements in Iceland but soon left. Gardar is said to have left one of his crew behind with a slave and bondswoman. (I’m not sure what distinguishes a slave from a bondswoman, or if these descriptions apply to one or two women). Since by this time the Vikings had been raiding for almost 100 years, it’s entirely possible the slave and bondswoman were Irish or Scottish. Floki Vilgerðarson came along around 868 CE. Iceland was his intended destination and he stayed longer than the other two. He named Iceland and intended to colonize it but on his return to Norway, he described it as an inhospitable place. By contrast, two of Floki’s crew, Herjolf and Thorolf, painted a rosy picture of Iceland, reporting that the blades of grass were almost dripping with butter, and they are credited with encouraging interest in immigration among people wanting to escape the tyranny of king Harald Finehair/ Fairhair 872-930 CE. Ingólfr Arnarson and his foster-brother Hjörleifr left Norway for Iceland at this time because of a blood-feud, bringing with them some Irish slaves. On arrival in Iceland, they are said to have encountered Irish monks who then left because they preferred not to live among heathens. If only we knew when those monks had arrived. Hjörleifr and his party were killed by their slaves who were in turn killed by Ingólfr. Having avenged his brother’s murder, Ingólfr founded the settlement in 874 CE which later became Reykjavík. I wasnt really implying the gaels had settled iceland prior to the vikings , but merely that i had read somewhere they had visited it centuries before the viking age.
Wasnt the climate of iceland a lot colder in the 5th century compared to the 9 th century ? Perhaps that was a reason?
..but thanks for the post.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 30, 2023 10:15:33 GMT
Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an English translation of Thorvaldur Fridrikkson's book Keltar yet. Im sure there will be soon. It will make an interesting read , and help scots especially come to an understanding of a bit of our gaelic past and heritage.
England was originally a Gaelic country as well, before the Roman invasion. Still, not complaining about the contribution immigrants have made. |
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Post by Ripley on Jan 30, 2023 17:33:01 GMT
Im sure there will be soon. It will make an interesting read , and help scots especially come to an understanding of a bit of our gaelic past and heritage.
. Still, not complaining about the contribution immigrants have made. If you're sure about that, do you have a link? You're not conflating Gaelic with Celtic? As far as I know, the Gaelic languages were not spoken in England. There are two branches of the Insular Celtic group of languages of Brittany, Great Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man. They are Brythonic (British Celtic) a.k.a. Brittonic, which was spoken in England, Wales and Lowland Scotland, and Goedelic, ie Gaelic, comprising Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx. Brythonic was spoken throughout the Iron Age and the Roman period, and was exported to Brittany. It evolved into Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbric, and possibly Pictish. Brythonic languages were possibly spoken on the Isle of Man and Orkney and were replaced by Goidelic on the Isle of Man and Norse on Orkney. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2023 17:48:55 GMT
England was originally a Gaelic country as well, before the Roman invasion. Still, not complaining about the contribution immigrants have made. If you're sure about that, do you have a link? You're not conflating Gaelic with Celtic? As far as I know, the Gaelic languages were not spoken in England. There are two branches of the Insular Celtic group of languages of Brittany, Great Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man. They are Brythonic (British Celtic) a.k.a. Brittonic, which was spoken in England, Wales and Lowland Scotland, and Goedelic, ie Gaelic, comprising Irish, Scottish Gaelic and Manx. Brythonic was spoken throughout the Iron Age and the Roman period, and was exported to Brittany. It evolved into Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Cumbric, and possibly Pictish. Brythonic languages were possibly spoken on the Isle of Man and Orkney and were replaced by Goidelic on the Isle of Man and Norse on Orkney. I think vinny is getting confused , but to be fair to him i have often wondered.
I think the traditional view that evolved over the last two centuries was that gaelic is an irish language that came to scotland around the fifth century ad. The trouble with that is not only to contemporary records not back that up , but neither does archaeology.
I think goidelic , a really ancient form of gaelic ,was the original celtic language that came to these islands from europe. We are talking so far back in time no one now can possibly know.
The theory is now goidelic may have come to these islands with the beaker people 4400 years ago.
I think what happened is that goidelic was pushed north and west by further incoming waves of the newer p celtic ( ancient ancestor of welsh). Certainly going back to scotland , archaeology shows no change in the people or the culture of western scotland around the 5th century ad.
Contemporary records/myths show the kingdom of dal riada , which was split across the straits of moyle , with the sea as the ancient highway , divided with the scottish monarchy taking its origination from fergus mor erc.
Scotland is further compounded by the fact we dont know what language the picts spoke. Its almost certain to be a celtic language , but we arent sure if it was p or q celtic.
Going back to further theories , there are five rivers from orkney to english surrey with celtic names called "ouse" , and these are thought to come from the goidelic word for water.....uisge.(ooshka)
Gaelic then found another renaissance period in both scotland and later ireland , when it pushed south and east once more till it was being spoken as the lingua franca all over modern day scotland , as far south as english cumbria and north northumberland by the 12th century , before the introduction of the normans into scotland changed the language of the elite to first french , then the hybrid half french middle english.
I do honestly think an anceint form of goidelic was the orignal celtic language of these entire islands. We know from spain for example if i remember correct , the original celts were gaelic speakers( the milesians of scottish and irish pre history were from northern spain) and that later in iberian history , a new wave of celts called the celtiiberians came in who were p celtic speakers prior to the roman invasions of iberia.
So interesting stuff .
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2023 17:54:27 GMT
Im sure there will be soon. It will make an interesting read , and help scots especially come to an understanding of a bit of our gaelic past and heritage.
England was originally a Gaelic country as well, before the Roman invasion. Still, not complaining about the contribution immigrants have made. I know what you mean , but the english in terms of the countrys origination , language and culture , are more properly classed as germanic , while the scots irish and welsh are celts.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 30, 2023 18:15:59 GMT
Here's a fun little map showing the evolution of language in the British Isles. Of course, it only starts at 400AD and we know that the Celtic precursor of the Goidelic languages is believed to have reached Ireland from Europe around 1000 BC. vividmaps.com/languages-british-isles-throughout-history/ |
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