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Post by Vinny on Jan 30, 2023 19:20:36 GMT
If you're sure about that, do you have a link? Gauls aka Celts started off in France, moved up through England, and into Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The word Gaelic has it's origins in the earlier word of Gaul. The Cornish in England have a Gaelic language. Gaelic was one of the original languages of our island. Interestingly Scotland was once three Kingdoms, Fortriu, Dalriada and Alba. It is a construct. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2023 20:04:02 GMT
Here's a fun little map showing the evolution of language in the British Isles. Of course, it only starts at 400AD and we know that the Celtic precursor of the Goidelic languages is believed to have reached Ireland from Europe around 1000 BC. vividmaps.com/languages-british-isles-throughout-history/two things.
First of all , regarding your last point on gaelic reaching ireland around 1000 bc , i think many dismiss this theory now. It was based on the old irish aristocracy being the oldest tracable aristocracy in europe. It was supposed to be based on pedigrees that stretched back 1500 years , to the first written christain records , and before that oral tradition going back three thousand years.
Professor Thomas o rahilly for example rejected placing any faith on the oral traditions pre christian. The old contempary irish records record golamh , mile easpain , soldier of spain as the progenitor of the gaels , but the old irish records such as the lebor gabala eren , or the book of invasions , talk of ireland being taken or invaded six times , five of them prior to the milesians.
Hence the theory goidelic could possibly have come to these islands long before one thousand bc.
Second point your map.
I know you say its a little fun , but to be honest the map is bollocks.
For example in the first one , in western scotland , there is no green showing gaelic in argyll 400 ad.
By 1000 to 1100 ad ,its showing english in central southern scotland , which was gaelic speaking with the remanants of cumbric , apart from the coastal areas of south east scotland south of the lammermuirs.
Placename examples of south east scotland showing the gaelic language in the area are gillecalmestun , a nunnery in north berwick recorded as late as 1228 ad.
Modern day eddlestun , near peebles , was originally p celtic Pentiacob , then gaelic gillmorestun , before it became eddlestun under the normans.
In eddlestun parish itself, there is a river called allt an eas labhair , the burn of the loud water , in the town of Dunbar , there is a knoll called cnoc na h - aire , the watch hill , and in berwickshire , there is a riverbank called the shanna bank , gaelic for sean ath , the old ford. tons of gaelic names in south east scotland from the gaelic period post 10th century.
I notice as well in your 1200 ad map of scotland , it has cumbric in what is now dumfries and galloway. Dumfries and galloway was a purely gaelic speaking area in 13th century scotland , with gaelic only dying out in south west scotland in the 18th century in the village of barr near girvan.
Cumbric died out further north , in lanarkshire.
I know you said the maps are merely fun , but i was always taught rather than maps with lingusitic divides showing languages either side of a line , you were better thinking of languages along the lines of for example the scottish burgh , flemish , french , or english speaking as dots surrounded by a sea of gaelic.
The attempts to erase scotlands gaelic language go back centuries , from memory as well as a living community language .
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Post by thomas on Jan 30, 2023 20:10:25 GMT
If you're sure about that, do you have a link? Gauls aka Celts started off in France, moved up through England, and into Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The word Gaelic has it's origins in the earlier word of Gaul. The Cornish in England have a Gaelic language. Gaelic was one of the original languages of our island. Interestingly Scotland was once three Kingdoms, Fortriu, Dalriada and Alba. It is a construct. Not true vinny.
The celtic languages were supposed to have originated by the headwaters of the river danube. They then spread out , as far west as britian and ireland , and as far east as modern day turkey.
Cornish isnt gaelic. Its called p celtic , similar to welsh.
If you dont understand the terminology , gaelic mac ( in english son of ) became Map in old welsh , ( hence the hard c sound called Q , became a P)and then the later welsh dropped the m and (son of ) became ap.
Fortrui and dal riada were part of alba.
Basically alba is an old goidelic name for britian , which then became prydain under the welsh , and then romanised to britain.
So alba meant the whole of britian , then scotland north of the forth , to modern scotland as a whole.
Scotland is one of the oldest countries in europe , and like any country is a construct. Its a celtic country founded by gaels , without gaels , there would be no scotland today.
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Post by Ripley on Jan 30, 2023 21:15:10 GMT
If you're sure about that, do you have a link? Gauls aka Celts started off in France, moved up through England, and into Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The word Gaelic has it's origins in the earlier word of Gaul. The Cornish in England have a Gaelic language. Gaelic was one of the original languages of our island. Interestingly Scotland was once three Kingdoms, Fortriu, Dalriada and Alba. It is a construct. Cornish evolved from Brythonic, one of the two branches of the Insular Celtic group of languages of Brittany, Great Britain, Ireland and the Isle of Man. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 30, 2023 22:24:39 GMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GaulsGauls aka Celts started off in France, moved up through England, and into Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The word Gaelic has it's origins in the earlier word of Gaul. The Cornish in England have a Gaelic language. Gaelic was one of the original languages of our island. Interestingly Scotland was once three Kingdoms, Fortriu, Dalriada and Alba. It is a construct. Not true vinny.
The celtic languages were supposed to have originated by the headwaters of the river danube. They then spread out , as far west as britian and ireland , and as far east as modern day turkey.
Cornish isnt gaelic. Its called p celtic , similar to welsh.
If you dont understand the terminology , gaelic mac ( in english son of ) became Map in old welsh , ( hence the hard c sound called Q , became a P)and then the later welsh dropped the m and (son of ) became ap.
Fortrui and dal riada were part of alba.
Basically alba is an old goidelic name for britian , which then became prydain under the welsh , and then romanised to britain.
So alba meant the whole of britian , then scotland north of the forth , to modern scotland as a whole.
Scotland is one of the oldest countries in europe , and like any country is a construct. Its a celtic country founded by gaels , without gaels , there would be no scotland today.
The Ancient KINGDOM of Alba pre dates the more modern Kingdom of Scotland.  There were three competing Kingdoms, time and wars and practicality whittled everything down to one. |
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Post by Ripley on Jan 30, 2023 22:49:49 GMT
Here's a fun little map showing the evolution of language in the British Isles. Of course, it only starts at 400AD and we know that the Celtic precursor of the Goidelic languages is believed to have reached Ireland from Europe around 1000 BC. vividmaps.com/languages-british-isles-throughout-history/two things.
First of all , regarding your last point on gaelic reaching ireland around 1000 bc , i think many dismiss this theory now. It was based on the old irish aristocracy being the oldest tracable aristocracy in europe. It was supposed to be based on pedigrees that stretched back 1500 years , to the first written christain records , and before that oral tradition going back three thousand years.
Professor Thomas o rahilly for example rejected placing any faith on the oral traditions pre christian. The old contempary irish records record golamh , mile easpain , soldier of spain as the progenitor of the gaels , but the old irish records such as the lebor gabala eren , or the book of invasions , talk of ireland being taken or invaded six times , five of them prior to the milesians.
Hence the theory goidelic could possibly have come to these islands long before one thousand bc.
Second point your map.
I know you say its a little fun , but to be honest the map is bollocks.
For example in the first one , in western scotland , there is no green showing gaelic in argyll 400 ad.
By 1000 to 1100 ad ,its showing english in central southern scotland , which was gaelic speaking with the remanants of cumbric , apart from the coastal areas of south east scotland south of the lammermuirs.
Placename examples of south east scotland showing the gaelic language in the area are gillecalmestun , a nunnery in north berwick recorded as late as 1228 ad.
Modern day eddlestun , near peebles , was originally p celtic Pentiacob , then gaelic gillmorestun , before it became eddlestun under the normans.
In eddlestun parish itself, there is a river called allt an eas labhair , the burn of the loud water , in the town of Dunbar , there is a knoll called cnoc na h - aire , the watch hill , and in berwickshire , there is a riverbank called the shanna bank , gaelic for sean ath , the old ford. tons of gaelic names in south east scotland from the gaelic period post 10th century.
I notice as well in your 1200 ad map of scotland , it has cumbric in what is now dumfries and galloway. Dumfries and galloway was a purely gaelic speaking area in 13th century scotland , with gaelic only dying out in south west scotland in the 18th century in the village of barr near girvan.
Cumbric died out further north , in lanarkshire.
I know you said the maps are merely fun , but i was always taught rather than maps with lingusitic divides showing languages either side of a line , you were better thinking of languages along the lines of for example the scottish burgh , flemish , french , or english speaking as dots surrounded by a sea of gaelic.
The attempts to erase scotlands gaelic language go back centuries , from memory as well as a living community language .
I find this subject fascinating but haven't studied it in any real depth. Going that far back in time, I suppose that some dates are impossible to pinpoint with any accuracy, and none of that is made easier by the evolving nature of language. I'd imagine there was a lot of overlap at any given time. I noticed that questionable 1200 AD map reference and thought I had read somewhere that Cumbric was extinct by the 12th century, Strathclyde having been incorporated into the kingdom of Scotland by Duncan1 in the early 11th century, a time during which Gaelic was the most commonly spoken language in Scotland. Certainly I'm aware of the attempts to suppress Gaelic though I never understood why a minority language should threaten English. Is it wishful thinking or is Gaelic seeing something of a resurgence nowadays? |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 31, 2023 7:01:59 GMT
I'm very pro Gaelic language education, it is a historical language of our island.
We shouldn't destroy our traditions and culture, we should preserve it, it's part of what makes up the tapestry of Great Britain.
What we should do though, is abolish shit laws. Really glad that our government has prevented the shit 'trans reform' law from the SNP.
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Post by thomas on Jan 31, 2023 8:08:33 GMT
Not true vinny.
The celtic languages were supposed to have originated by the headwaters of the river danube. They then spread out , as far west as britian and ireland , and as far east as modern day turkey.
Cornish isnt gaelic. Its called p celtic , similar to welsh.
If you dont understand the terminology , gaelic mac ( in english son of ) became Map in old welsh , ( hence the hard c sound called Q , became a P)and then the later welsh dropped the m and (son of ) became ap.
Fortrui and dal riada were part of alba.
Basically alba is an old goidelic name for britian , which then became prydain under the welsh , and then romanised to britain.
So alba meant the whole of britian , then scotland north of the forth , to modern scotland as a whole.
Scotland is one of the oldest countries in europe , and like any country is a construct. Its a celtic country founded by gaels , without gaels , there would be no scotland today.
The Ancient KINGDOM of Alba pre dates the more modern Kingdom of Scotland. There were three competing Kingdoms, time and wars and practicality whittled everything down to one. Vinny the map is giving a misleading picture.
Fortrui wasnt a kingdom. It was one of five pictish provinces , headed by what is called in gaelic a "mormaer" , similar to a later "earl".
Alba was the name the goidelic celts gave to the island of britain , and over the centuries , its meaning varied. The latin word "albion" comes from alba.
When the pictish kingdom( which included fortrui) merged with the gaelic kingdom of dal riada , collcectively in the mid ninth century , it became known as alba. So while fortui and dal riada were indeed competing celtic sub kingdoms , they were always part of what was called alba to the gaels( in terms of the earlier meaning of the entire island of britian , and the later meanings of the kingdom north of the forth clyde , then later modern scotland)
In the native scottish ( and irish ) languages alba is the name of scotland , and the men of scotland are "albannach".
Scotland is a name the came into being from the latin of the church , used at first as the language of administration under the norman french , with scotti being latin for a gaelic speaking celt.
In the history of the catholic church , its full of priests from ireland for example who are called scots , or latin scotus.
An example being the irish priest mael brigte in the 11 th century , who travelled continental europe , and was known in the catholic church as marianus scotus.
As an english example you might find clearer , what you are saying about fortrui and dal riada competing with alba , is the equivalent of wessex and northumbria competing with england. It doesnt really make a lot of sense.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 31, 2023 8:20:19 GMT
England, like Scotland, was once a patchwork quilt of competing Kingdoms, which after many wars, whittled down the monarchs, until ultimately there was only one. And he was Scottish.
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Post by thomas on Jan 31, 2023 8:26:31 GMT
two things.
First of all , regarding your last point on gaelic reaching ireland around 1000 bc , i think many dismiss this theory now. It was based on the old irish aristocracy being the oldest tracable aristocracy in europe. It was supposed to be based on pedigrees that stretched back 1500 years , to the first written christain records , and before that oral tradition going back three thousand years.
Professor Thomas o rahilly for example rejected placing any faith on the oral traditions pre christian. The old contempary irish records record golamh , mile easpain , soldier of spain as the progenitor of the gaels , but the old irish records such as the lebor gabala eren , or the book of invasions , talk of ireland being taken or invaded six times , five of them prior to the milesians.
Hence the theory goidelic could possibly have come to these islands long before one thousand bc.
Second point your map.
I know you say its a little fun , but to be honest the map is bollocks.
For example in the first one , in western scotland , there is no green showing gaelic in argyll 400 ad.
By 1000 to 1100 ad ,its showing english in central southern scotland , which was gaelic speaking with the remanants of cumbric , apart from the coastal areas of south east scotland south of the lammermuirs.
Placename examples of south east scotland showing the gaelic language in the area are gillecalmestun , a nunnery in north berwick recorded as late as 1228 ad.
Modern day eddlestun , near peebles , was originally p celtic Pentiacob , then gaelic gillmorestun , before it became eddlestun under the normans.
In eddlestun parish itself, there is a river called allt an eas labhair , the burn of the loud water , in the town of Dunbar , there is a knoll called cnoc na h - aire , the watch hill , and in berwickshire , there is a riverbank called the shanna bank , gaelic for sean ath , the old ford. tons of gaelic names in south east scotland from the gaelic period post 10th century.
I notice as well in your 1200 ad map of scotland , it has cumbric in what is now dumfries and galloway. Dumfries and galloway was a purely gaelic speaking area in 13th century scotland , with gaelic only dying out in south west scotland in the 18th century in the village of barr near girvan.
Cumbric died out further north , in lanarkshire.
I know you said the maps are merely fun , but i was always taught rather than maps with lingusitic divides showing languages either side of a line , you were better thinking of languages along the lines of for example the scottish burgh , flemish , french , or english speaking as dots surrounded by a sea of gaelic.
The attempts to erase scotlands gaelic language go back centuries , from memory as well as a living community language .
I find this subject fascinating but haven't studied it in any real depth. Going that far back in time, I suppose that some dates are impossible to pinpoint with any accuracy, and none of that is made easier by the evolving nature of language. I'd imagine there was a lot of overlap at any given time. I noticed that questionable 1200 AD map reference and thought I had read somewhere that Cumbric was extinct by the 12th century, Strathclyde having been incorporated into the kingdom of Scotland by Duncan1 in the early 11th century, a time during which Gaelic was the most commonly spoken language in Scotland. Certainly I'm aware of the attempts to suppress Gaelic though I never understood why a minority language should threaten English. Is it wishful thinking or is Gaelic seeing something of a resurgence nowadays? Aye the idea was that cumbric had long been in decline as gaelic , then later english ( or the scots dialect)became the language of power. It seems to have died out somewhere in modern day lanarkshire , speculated to be around 12th/ 13th centuries.
When the gaelic kingdom incorporated strathclyde after the death of owain the bald , in the 11th century , strathclyde had long been settled by gaels for centuries , with massive gaelic language and custom influence.
The problem with scottish history , including linguistic history , tends to be the unkown of the picts , and wild speculation , the norman french influence under the mac malcom kings from the 11th/12th centuries , gaelic ceased to be the language of administration from around 1400 onwards ,and then the desturction of scotlands gaelic language deocuments and books in the 16th century reformation , when scottish gaelic became dismissed as "irish"......catholic....and then of course the final nail was the events after culloden.
We also have three main pieces of medieval propaganda that seems to stick erronously i nthe minds of modern day historians.......symeon of durham inventing the angles calling dinas eidyn/dun eadainn edwinesburgh , which was a nonsesne.
Adam of dryburgh calling lothian the land of the english in the kingdom of the scots , another piece of nonsense.
..and john of forduns inventing of the highland lowland line in the 14th century. Again , complete rubbish .
This has led to confusion and the inability of many scots to understand our gaelic history. I think gaelic is seeing a small resurgance. Certainly , scotlands linguistic history is having much more interest shown.
A couple of good reads on the subject are the celtic placenames of scotland by professor william watson. copletely dispells the myth that gaelic wasnt spoken in places like lothian or strathclyde.
Literature like professor G .W . S . Barrow , in his "lost gaidhealtachd of medieval scotland" , where the gaelic language slowly withdrew from south and eastern scotland over many centuries is a fantastic read. He destoys forduns 14th century propganda of a highland lowland line , and shows how the highest ranks of scottish society as well as legal system remained gaelic well into the late medieval and in some places early modern period.
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Post by thomas on Jan 31, 2023 8:29:27 GMT
England, like Scotland, was once a patchwork quilt of competing Kingdoms, which after many wars, whittled down the monarchs, until ultimately there was only one. And he was Scottish. it was and i agreed wit hthat earlier. Im simply commenting on your erronous use of alba as a competing kingdom with fortrui.
England was generally a patchwork of germanic language sub kingdoms , and scotland celtic. The difference is in the language and culture.
Of course its a bit more nuanced than that , but that is the basic premise.
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Post by thomas on Jan 31, 2023 8:30:43 GMT
I'm very pro Gaelic language education, it is a historical language of our island. We shouldn't destroy our traditions and culture, we should preserve it, it's part of what makes up the tapestry of Great Britain. What we should do though, is abolish shit laws. Really glad that our government has prevented the shit 'trans reform' law from the SNP. Viinny why do the germans speak german , the french french........buy you british english?  |
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Post by thomas on Jan 31, 2023 8:35:46 GMT
whittled down the monarchs, until ultimately there was only one. And he was Scottish. No he was what we would call irish today.
The scottish , ( and later british ) monarchy from memory trace their lineage back to the legendary fergus mor erc . Going further back , they traced themselves from northern spain , and prior to that north africa all the way back to scythia.
A figure in gaelic mythology is supposed to have married an egyption princess called scota , hence where (in myth) scotland got its name.
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Post by Vinny on Jan 31, 2023 9:32:46 GMT
England, like Scotland, was once a patchwork quilt of competing Kingdoms, which after many wars, whittled down the monarchs, until ultimately there was only one. And he was Scottish. it was and i agreed wit hthat earlier. Im simply commenting on your erronous use of alba as a competing kingdom with fortrui.
England was generally a patchwork of germanic language sub kingdoms , and scotland celtic. The difference is in the language and culture.
Of course its a bit more nuanced than that , but that is the basic premise.
Ah whatever, I'm just glad to live in a country where we're not killing each other for some stuck up unelected monarch who wants a war and a bit of extra land. I'd rather drink with you and kick your arse at pool, than fight you. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 1, 2023 8:01:24 GMT
it was and i agreed wit hthat earlier. Im simply commenting on your erronous use of alba as a competing kingdom with fortrui.
England was generally a patchwork of germanic language sub kingdoms , and scotland celtic. The difference is in the language and culture.
Of course its a bit more nuanced than that , but that is the basic premise.
Ah whatever, I'm just glad to live in a country where we're not killing each other for some stuck up unelected monarch who wants a war and a bit of extra land. I'd rather drink with you and kick your arse at pool, than fight you. Everybody around the world just want to get on with each other and live in harmony. What we dont want is your government controlling our land and people.
Better to be friends as independent nations than fighting like rats in a sack non stop in some unhappy british prison.
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