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Post by sheepy on Feb 2, 2023 8:11:39 GMT
Well historically we all spoke Brythonic, which evolved into different dialectics of Gaelic, although I am sure it will be of contention. Ripley is on the case. Interesting thread though. Even if JD is convinced we are all Germans.
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 8:18:35 GMT
Here's a fun exercise by AncestryDNA about whose accuracy I make no representations. www.ancestry.com/corporate/international/press-releases/DNA-of-the-nation-revealedand-were-not-as-British-as-we-thinkBrad Argent from AncestryDNA said: “At a time when the concept of British identity is at the forefront of many people’s minds, it’s interesting to see that when it comes to our ancestry, we’re not as British or Irish as we may think. The UK has been a cultural and ethnic melting pot for not just generations, but centuries, and our DNA data provides a fascinating glimpse into our ancestors, including hints of immigration and emigration. While it’s fascinating looking at this data on a national scale, the fun really starts when you test your own DNA and begin to delve into your own family history.” Ancestry did an analysis of the genetic history of two million people worldwide based on data collated from the AncestryDNA home DNA test that uses microarray-based autosomal DNA testing, which surveys a person’s entire genome at over 700,000 different genetic locations via a simple saliva sample. Analysis of the data provides a prediction of the locations of ancestors from 26 separate worldwide populations including Great Britain and Ireland, Europe, Scandinavia, Asia and South and North Africa. In contrast to Y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA tests, which only test one line of your family and generally provide information about ancestry several thousand years ago, the AncestryDNA autosomal test targets the last few hundred or thousand years. The study revealed the genetic make-up of the nation, finding Yorkshire to be the most ‘British’ region in the UK, while London is the most ethnically diverse and the East Midlands the most Scandinavian region in the UK. The results reveal the genetic ethnic make up of the ‘average’ person in the UK and what countries and/or regions they can trace their ancestry back to over the past 500 years. They found that the average UK resident is 36.94% British (Anglo Saxon), 21.59% Irish (Celtic) and 19.91% Western European (the region covered today by France and Germany). Following these top three regional ethnicities in the average UK resident are Scandinavia (9.20%), the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) (3.05%), and Italy and Greece (1.98%). For more information on these regions see Table 2 below. Interestingly, breakdowns of the data also reveal differences between residents of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and even within English regions. English people have significantly less Irish ancestry (just 20% of their genetic make-up) on average compared to people living in Scotland (43.84%), Wales (31.99%) and Northern Ireland (48.49%). English residents do however have the highest amount of Scandinavian (9.39%) and Western European (French/German) (20.45%) ancestry. Scottish residents have the highest amount of Finnish/Northwest Russian (1.31%) heritage, which is explained by their geographic proximity. Welsh residents have the highest proportion of ancestry from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) in the UK (3%). Page down on the link to see the top ethnicities by region. If this study is accurate, the Scots are less British than Irish, but we knew that, didn’t we? Thanks for that ripley. Really interesting stuff.
I think a large part of the problem as well is the definition of britishness. Who are the british?
Since the roman times , over the last two thousand years of scholastic research , the british have been defined as a p celtic speaking people. Scottish irish and english literature and history all refer to them as gaelic "bretnach" or in old english "wealhas" , which of course in the modern day english is welsh.
As they were pushed west , lost their lands in what eventually became england (in modern welsh England is called lloegyr.....the lost lands) they appear to have gradually stopped calling themselves the british and started calling themselves the cymru from the 10th century onwards.
It wasnt until the 17th century or there abouts the westmisnter elite decided to dig back up the old name britian and british , as a sop to celtic sensibilities as England gradually took over the whole of these islands , and as i said earlier , it wasnt until the 19th century and height of the empire , when the term british really took hold among the ordinary english.
So for the last 1600 years of the existence of the english and their ancestors in these islands , they seem to have appropriated the term british in the last two hundred years , linked it with empire , and here we are today.
Its fascinating debating with people like vinny , who come across as right wing british nationals , getting all tongue tied and twisted trying to linguistcally culturaly and historically claim the name british while in denial of all the evidence that the english hisotrically were the age old enemies of the british and hated them.
..but , aye. The post above makes perfect sense to me. DNA appears to back up history myth and contemporary records , that show we are all the children of immigrants somewhere back along the line of history , and wether the british today like it or not , are of course europeans in identity and by descent. Wether celtic, viking , norman or anglo saxon , all came from the continent and added to the hisotry and cultures of the differing peoples of these islands.
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 8:21:57 GMT
Well historically we all spoke Brythonic, which evolved into different dialectics of Gaelic, although I am sure it will be of contention. Ripley is on the case. Interesting thread though. Even if JD is convinced we are all Germans. no we didnt sheepwash. Goidelic was the original celtic language , which evolved into p celtic , or brythonic spoken first on the continent then waves of thse people came to thse islands circa 1000 to possibly 600 bc , with the last brythonic speakers coming here just before the roman invasion.
You do know gaul (modern France) and many other european nations , as far afield as galatia in turkey , spoke forms of Brythonic? Brythonic was a good european language .
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Post by sheepy on Feb 2, 2023 8:22:57 GMT
Here's a fun exercise by AncestryDNA about whose accuracy I make no representations. www.ancestry.com/corporate/international/press-releases/DNA-of-the-nation-revealedand-were-not-as-British-as-we-thinkBrad Argent from AncestryDNA said: “At a time when the concept of British identity is at the forefront of many people’s minds, it’s interesting to see that when it comes to our ancestry, we’re not as British or Irish as we may think. The UK has been a cultural and ethnic melting pot for not just generations, but centuries, and our DNA data provides a fascinating glimpse into our ancestors, including hints of immigration and emigration. While it’s fascinating looking at this data on a national scale, the fun really starts when you test your own DNA and begin to delve into your own family history.” Ancestry did an analysis of the genetic history of two million people worldwide based on data collated from the AncestryDNA home DNA test that uses microarray-based autosomal DNA testing, which surveys a person’s entire genome at over 700,000 different genetic locations via a simple saliva sample. Analysis of the data provides a prediction of the locations of ancestors from 26 separate worldwide populations including Great Britain and Ireland, Europe, Scandinavia, Asia and South and North Africa. In contrast to Y-chromosome or mitochondrial DNA tests, which only test one line of your family and generally provide information about ancestry several thousand years ago, the AncestryDNA autosomal test targets the last few hundred or thousand years. The study revealed the genetic make-up of the nation, finding Yorkshire to be the most ‘British’ region in the UK, while London is the most ethnically diverse and the East Midlands the most Scandinavian region in the UK. The results reveal the genetic ethnic make up of the ‘average’ person in the UK and what countries and/or regions they can trace their ancestry back to over the past 500 years. They found that the average UK resident is 36.94% British (Anglo Saxon), 21.59% Irish (Celtic) and 19.91% Western European (the region covered today by France and Germany). Following these top three regional ethnicities in the average UK resident are Scandinavia (9.20%), the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) (3.05%), and Italy and Greece (1.98%). For more information on these regions see Table 2 below. Interestingly, breakdowns of the data also reveal differences between residents of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and even within English regions. English people have significantly less Irish ancestry (just 20% of their genetic make-up) on average compared to people living in Scotland (43.84%), Wales (31.99%) and Northern Ireland (48.49%). English residents do however have the highest amount of Scandinavian (9.39%) and Western European (French/German) (20.45%) ancestry. Scottish residents have the highest amount of Finnish/Northwest Russian (1.31%) heritage, which is explained by their geographic proximity. Welsh residents have the highest proportion of ancestry from the Iberian Peninsula (Spain/Portugal) in the UK (3%). Page down on the link to see the top ethnicities by region. If this study is accurate, the Scots are less British than Irish, but we knew that, didn’t we? Thanks for that ripley. Really interesting stuff.
I think a large part of the problem as well is the definition of britishness. Who are the british?
Since the roman times , over the last two thousand years of scholastic research , the british have been defined as a p celtic speaking people. Scottish irish and english literature and history all refer to them as gaelic "bretnach" or in old english "wealhas" , which of course in the modern day english is welsh.
As they were pushed west , lost their lands in what eventually became england (in modern welsh England is called lloegyr.....the lost lands) they appear to have gradually stopped calling themselves the british and started calling themselves the cymru from the 10th century onwards.
It wasnt until the 17th century or there abouts the westmisnter elite decided to dig back up the old name britian and british , as a sop to celtic sensibilities as England gradually took over the whole of these islands , and as i said earlier , it wasnt until the 19th century and height of the empire , when the term british really took hold among the ordinary english.
So for the last 1600 years of the existence of the english and their ancestors in these islands , they seem to have appropriated the term british in the last two hundred years , linked it with empire , and here we are today.
Its fascinating debating with people like vinny , who come across as right wing british nationals , getting all tongue tied and twisted trying to linguistcally culturaly and historically claim the name british while in denial of all the evidence that the english hisotrically were the age old enemies of the british and hated them.
..but , aye. The post above makes perfect sense to me. DNA appears to back up history myth and contemporary records , that show we are all the children of immigrants somewhere back along the line of history , and wether the british today like it or not , are of course europeans in identity and by descent. Wether celtic, viking , norman or anglo saxon , all came from the continent and added to the hisotry and cultures of the differing peoples of these islands.
Depends I guess on which politics we are facing at any one time, we are also all African in that case. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 8:31:24 GMT
Thanks for that ripley. Really interesting stuff.
I think a large part of the problem as well is the definition of britishness. Who are the british?
Since the roman times , over the last two thousand years of scholastic research , the british have been defined as a p celtic speaking people. Scottish irish and english literature and history all refer to them as gaelic "bretnach" or in old english "wealhas" , which of course in the modern day english is welsh.
As they were pushed west , lost their lands in what eventually became england (in modern welsh England is called lloegyr.....the lost lands) they appear to have gradually stopped calling themselves the british and started calling themselves the cymru from the 10th century onwards.
It wasnt until the 17th century or there abouts the westmisnter elite decided to dig back up the old name britian and british , as a sop to celtic sensibilities as England gradually took over the whole of these islands , and as i said earlier , it wasnt until the 19th century and height of the empire , when the term british really took hold among the ordinary english.
So for the last 1600 years of the existence of the english and their ancestors in these islands , they seem to have appropriated the term british in the last two hundred years , linked it with empire , and here we are today.
Its fascinating debating with people like vinny , who come across as right wing british nationals , getting all tongue tied and twisted trying to linguistcally culturaly and historically claim the name british while in denial of all the evidence that the english hisotrically were the age old enemies of the british and hated them.
..but , aye. The post above makes perfect sense to me. DNA appears to back up history myth and contemporary records , that show we are all the children of immigrants somewhere back along the line of history , and wether the british today like it or not , are of course europeans in identity and by descent. Wether celtic, viking , norman or anglo saxon , all came from the continent and added to the hisotry and cultures of the differing peoples of these islands.
Depends I guess on which politics we are facing at any one time, we are also all African in that case. Exactly. DNA is a good guide to ancestry , but its merely one tool of many , and obviously doesnt give evidence on things like language and culture. We are all human beings , interlinked with everyone else on the planet somewhere along the line , and it merely boils down politically to which tribe you want to belong to.
My tribe is scottish.
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Post by borchester on Feb 2, 2023 8:34:02 GMT
Well historically we all spoke Brythonic, which evolved into different dialectics of Gaelic, although I am sure it will be of contention. Ripley is on the case. Interesting thread though. Even if JD is convinced we are all Germans. We may well be Germans. The problem is that the Germans weren't always Germans. They were probably originally Roma who had been moved on by the police.
Give me a decent grant and I will proved that the Celtic tongue was a variation on the ancient back slang spoken at the court of the Pearly Kings of Peckham. |
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Post by sheepy on Feb 2, 2023 8:46:19 GMT
Depends I guess on which politics we are facing at any one time, we are also all African in that case. Exactly. DNA is a good guide to ancestry , but its merely one tool of many , and obviously doesnt give evidence on things like language and culture. We are all human beings , interlinked with everyone else on the planet somewhere along the line , and it merely boils down politically to which tribe you want to belong to.
My tribe is scottish.
I think I might know that thomas, so might the author is what Borchester is telling you, but then somebody might have slipped him a tenner. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Feb 2, 2023 11:14:25 GMT
Well historically we all spoke Brythonic, which evolved into different dialectics of Gaelic, although I am sure it will be of contention. Ripley is on the case. Interesting thread though. Even if JD is convinced we are all Germans. no we didnt sheepwash. Goidelic was the original celtic language , which evolved into p celtic , or brythonic spoken first on the continent then waves of thse people came to thse islands circa 1000 to possibly 600 bc , with the last brythonic speakers coming here just before the roman invasion.
You do know gaul (modern France) and many other european nations , as far afield as galatia in turkey , spoke forms of Brythonic? Brythonic was a good european language .
Was it waves of Celts who came to these Islands or was it more a case of the language and technology that arrived and replaced what went before rather than a mass influx of ''Celtic peoples''? |
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Post by Ripley on Feb 2, 2023 15:45:47 GMT
Questions for Thomas: Does it surprise you that almost 44% of the Scots have Irish ancestry? What similarities and/or differences do you see between the Scots and the Irish? What, if anything, do you read into the fact that in the 2011 census, 62% of Scots self-identified as Scottish only rather than British?
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 16:00:24 GMT
Exactly. DNA is a good guide to ancestry , but its merely one tool of many , and obviously doesnt give evidence on things like language and culture. We are all human beings , interlinked with everyone else on the planet somewhere along the line , and it merely boils down politically to which tribe you want to belong to.
My tribe is scottish.
I think I might know that thomas, so might the author is what Borchester is telling you, but then somebody might have slipped him a tenner. nobody takes borkie seriously though. He used to work for HMRC .
Borkie is sweating profusely and spending most of his time down the allotment thinking about ways to avoid that nice mr starmers incoming nhs taxes for the wealthy retired with second homes.
Its well known that londoners arent the brightest , cant speak proper english , eat shite like jellied eels and that northerners are far more intelligent. So never mind what borchester is telling anyone. Everytime borkie tells someone something he loses twenty quid on a bet.
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 16:06:58 GMT
no we didnt sheepwash. Goidelic was the original celtic language , which evolved into p celtic , or brythonic spoken first on the continent then waves of thse people came to thse islands circa 1000 to possibly 600 bc , with the last brythonic speakers coming here just before the roman invasion.
You do know gaul (modern France) and many other european nations , as far afield as galatia in turkey , spoke forms of Brythonic? Brythonic was a good european language .
Was it waves of Celts who came to these Islands or was it more a case of the language and technology that arrived and replaced what went before rather than a mass influx of ''Celtic peoples''? Didnt i read it was waves of celtic cpeakers who came to these islands , and while they didnt completely replace the existing hunter gatherers who had lived here before , the majority of people in these islands can be traced back to european tribes that came here 4500 to 5000 years ago?
I must try and dig up the article monte. Wasnt chedder man an example of the ancient people who lived in these islands before the arrival of the celts? These were the peoples who built stonehenge and skara brae?
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 16:21:42 GMT
Questions for Thomas: Does it surprise you that almost 44% of the Scots have Irish ancestry? What similarities and/or differences do you see between the Scots and the Irish? What, if anything, do you read into the fact that in the 2011 census, 62% of Scots self-identified as Scottish only rather than British? Not at all ripley. The connections between scotland and ireland go back at least three thousand years , with three massive waves of emigration between the two countiries in that time , the last wave being of course in the 19th century from ireland to scotland.
In tam devines History of the scottish nation 1700 to 2000 , he states that at one point in the late 19th early twentieth century 25 % of scotlands central belt population was irish.
My own family , both paternal and maternal , have both irish catholic and protestant from antrim and further south , in the family , and i have family in the north of ireland still today.
When studying gaelic historical maunscripts , the biggest challenge faced by historians is finding out wether it comes from scotland or ireland. I think the scottish and irish are possibly the most similar peoples in the world .
the 2011 census was nothing unusual . Studies show over tme , most scots see themselves as scots in terms of nationality but part of the british state.....or in the past british empire.
I think that is because we recognise we went into a political and economic union with the english in 1707 , unlike ireland and wales that were both at first militarily conquered and annexed to the english kingdom , while scotland retained its national territory and national insitutions like law , church and education.
Britishness is quite divisive in scotland , because it is associated with ulster unionism. People can be happy in scotland with the union with england , perhaps dont see scotlands best interests as laying outside the british state , but absolutely abhor british nationalism and the divisive ulster unionism links.( edit to add , hence why right wing english nationalism never gets a look in ie ukip bnp brexit party)
Britishness in scotland appears to be massively different to the britishness the english appear to believe in . I think scotland is now more properly in political terms closer to , but not the same as northern irish politics without the sectariansim.
If scottish nationalism had been sectarian like in ireland , it would never have got off the ground.
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Post by Ripley on Feb 2, 2023 16:47:04 GMT
Questions for Thomas: Does it surprise you that almost 44% of the Scots have Irish ancestry? What similarities and/or differences do you see between the Scots and the Irish? What, if anything, do you read into the fact that in the 2011 census, 62% of Scots self-identified as Scottish only rather than British? Not at all ripley. The connections between scotland and ireland go back at least three thousand years , with three massive waves of emigration between the two countiries in that time , the last wave being of course in the 19th century from ireland to scotland.
In tam devines History of the scottish nation 1700 to 2000 , he states that at one point in the late 19th early twentieth century 25 % of scotlands central belt population was irish.
My own family , both paternal and maternal , have both irish catholic and protestant from antrim and further south , in the family , and i have family in the north of ireland still today.
When studying gaelic historical maunscripts , the biggest challenge faced by historians is finding out wether it comes from scotland or ireland. I think the scottish and irish are possibly the most similar peoples in the world .
the 2011 census was nothing unusual . Studies show over tme , most scots see themselves as scots in terms of nationality but part of the british state.....or in the past british empire.
I think that is because we recognise we went into a political and economic union with the english in 1707 , unlike ireland and wales that were both at first militarily conquered and annexed to the english kingdom , while scotland retained its national territory and national insitutions like law , church and education.
Britishness is quite divisive in scotland , because it is associated with ulster unionism. People can be happy in scotland with the union with england , perhaps dont see scotlands best interests as laying outside the british state , but absolutely abhor british nationalism and the divisive ulster unionism links.( edit to add , hence why right wing english nationalism never gets a look in ie ukip bnp brexit party)
Britishness in scotland appears to be massively different to the britishness the english appear to believe in . I think scotland is now more properly in political terms closer to , but not the same as northern irish politics without the sectariansim.
If scottish nationalism had been sectarian like in ireland , it would never have got off the ground.
Thanks for replying. Most interesting. If most Scots see themselves as part of the British state, what does that imply for Scottish independence? Do you think that the Irish would support the assertion of Scottish independence? |
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Post by Montegriffo on Feb 2, 2023 17:30:10 GMT
Was it waves of Celts who came to these Islands or was it more a case of the language and technology that arrived and replaced what went before rather than a mass influx of ''Celtic peoples''? Didnt i read it was waves of celtic cpeakers who came to these islands , and while they didnt completely replace the existing hunter gatherers who had lived here before , the majority of people in these islands can be traced back to european tribes that came here 4500 to 5000 years ago?
I must try and dig up the article monte. Wasnt chedder man an example of the ancient people who lived in these islands before the arrival of the celts? These were the peoples who built stonehenge and skara brae?
I've always thought it was the Bell Beaker people who marked the end of the Neolithic with their metal working ( in gold and copper ) and farming and they appear to have come from Morocco via Portugal and Spain. The Beaker people seem to have arrived some 5,000 years ago while Cheddar man has been dated to around 10,000 years ago. The Celtic language and iron making arriving later still but rather than Celts physically replacing the Beaker people they arrived in relatively small numbers and it was their culture which changed the people rather than their people which overran the previous culture. In other words Celtic isn't an ethnic group it is a language group which was adopted by the people of Europe with its superior technology and common language helping to facilitate trade between the different regions of the continent. So the Beaker people became Celtic but they started out different. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2023 18:14:03 GMT
Didnt i read it was waves of celtic cpeakers who came to these islands , and while they didnt completely replace the existing hunter gatherers who had lived here before , the majority of people in these islands can be traced back to european tribes that came here 4500 to 5000 years ago?
I must try and dig up the article monte. Wasnt chedder man an example of the ancient people who lived in these islands before the arrival of the celts? These were the peoples who built stonehenge and skara brae?
I've always thought it was the Bell Beaker people who marked the end of the Neolithic with their metal working ( in gold and copper ) and farming and they appear to have come from Morocco via Portugal and Spain. The Beaker people seem to have arrived some 5,000 years ago while Cheddar man has been dated to around 10,000 years ago. The Celtic language and iron making arriving later still but rather than Celts physically replacing the Beaker people they arrived in relatively small numbers and it was their culture which changed the people rather than their people which overran the previous culture. In other words Celtic isn't an ethnic group it is a language group which was adopted by the people of Europe with its superior technology and common language helping to facilitate trade between the different regions of the continent. So the Beaker people became Celtic but they started out different. Nobody knows when the initial celtic languages came to these islands , as i said an ancient form of gaelic , goidelic, proto celtic , call it what you will is first thought to have come here ( educated speculation by historians) with the bell beaker people.
I have made the point numerous times celtic , like germanic , is a cultural and lingusitic definition. However every single wave of immigrants that came to these islands have come from europe at one point or another. Wether its the initial hunter gatherers that came north west after the ice retreated , the subsequent waves of celtic speakers , and the later more well known migrants like romans , or normans etc , all have come from europe.
i thought this myth that the british island race decended from original hunter gatherers had been long put to the sword in terms of dna make up?
Different migrants came here for differing reasons. For exmaple , the romans and normans came as conquering elites , and made up relatively few of the popualtion. The celts , anglo saxons and danes for exmaple came here to settle , and made up a large part of the popualtions .
I thought in ripleys earlier link it showed the uk dna shows 60 % european descent , which would fit in with the waves of celtic , anglo saxon and scandinavian settlers over the centuries?
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