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Post by Pacifico on Jan 4, 2023 22:26:55 GMT
I dont have a problem with it pacifico. The problem appears to be with unionists and some folk in the uk of unionist persuasion. How? - the Unionists are using it as it was written. I don't see what problem you think they are having.. Participation has. Or do you feel the GFA should be overridden and the various communities forced to accept proposals they disagree with? If you believe there is no conflict and the Protocol is working fine what is the problem?. You can run around the houses all day long but the fact is that one community in NI does not accept the Protocol and the GFA gives them the power to espouse that opposition. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 4, 2023 22:48:17 GMT
This is a summary of your position:There are currently substantial barriers to trade between Britain and NI, but these barriers are not as substantial as those which exist between the UK and the EU. Right? Link? Let's sum up your position, Doc. Your position is that Brexit is causing substantial interference with trade with NI. And, by your own admission in this thread, it is causing less interference with trade with NI than with the EU. So, your position is that Brexit has caused substantial interference with trade with NI and very substantial interference with trade with the EU. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 5, 2023 7:36:55 GMT
Why dont you take my position as what I say it is - rather than inventing your own idea about my position?
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Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 9:34:39 GMT
I dont have a problem with it pacifico. The problem appears to be with unionists and some folk in the uk of unionist persuasion. How? - the Unionists are using it as it was written. I don't see what problem you think they are having.. Obviously they have a problem with something otherwise they would be taking their seats at stormont. They can sit off in a huff all day , thats up to them....meanwhile northern ireland is still using the NIP and part of the eu to all extents and purposes.........different from the rest of the uk.
only DUP ,hardcore unionist participation. I dont think society has fallen apart , neither has the protocol been removed.
The adults are carrying on as normal , while the unruly children are sulking in the corner.
No i dont think the GFA should be overridden , and its not been in this case. The EU , the americans , the irish gov , gave northern ireland and the uk the chance to decide
1. to accept the protocol...which they did.
2. the mechanism to end the protocol compatible with the GFA......the uk government agreed it would be a vote by a simple majority every four years.
If unionists dont want to take thier seats in 2024 , and vote to end the protocol by trying to gain a majority , then im failing to see how the GFA has been overidden. It was the uk preffered method of dealing with the protocol , the vrey protocl they signed up to by their own free will in the first place.
Sorry pacifico , im struggling here with your reasonsing.
We are going around in circles pacifico. I have no problem with it. No one else has a problem with it except hardcore unionists. You need to direct that question at them.
again i repeat the british government chose to go down the simple majority route to end the protocol in stormont. Tell them , not me.
Unionists can end the protocl in 2024 if they choose to take thier seats and gain a majority , by the uk governments own rules that everyone agreed to at the time.
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 5, 2023 10:43:54 GMT
It's well worth remembering the OP. A key component of the Protocol from an Irish and EU perspective now says and admits the Protocol is too strict. If it has finally dawned on him that the fears and realities of Unionists and
certain Brexiteers are sincere and genuine then that's more important than a view to reason with than some SNAT with an axe to grind.
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 5, 2023 10:50:42 GMT
Why dont you take my position as what I say it is - rather than inventing your own idea about my position? Your position is that Brexit has caused very substantial interference with trade with the EU. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 10:55:07 GMT
It's well worth remembering the OP. A key component of the Protocol from an Irish and EU perspective now says and admits the Protocol is too strict. If it has finally dawned on him that the fears and realities of Unionists and certain Brexiteers are sincere and genuine then that's more important than a view to reason with than some SNAT with an axe to grind. I have been hearing the protocol is going to be ended since it was first implemented , its still there. Clearly the uk government is rather uninterested , and wants to merely pay lip service to those on the union outrage bus while kicking the can down the road to 2024 , and letting paddy decide for himself , while the uk gov washes its hands of the matter either way. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 10:59:16 GMT
that's more important than a view to reason with than some SNAT with an axe to grind. why bring scottish nationalsits into it buccy?
This is a political forum , and im sure we are all free to comment on uk wide issues. Im not sure why its an axe to grind commenting on the protocol , or is this your way of shutting down uncomfortable debate?
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 5, 2023 11:14:42 GMT
that's more important than a view to reason with than some SNAT with an axe to grind. why bring scottish nationalsits into it buccy?
This is a political forum , and im sure we are all free to comment on uk wide issues. Im not sure why its an axe to grind commenting on the protocol , or is this your way of shutting down uncomfortable debate?
Not at all. But the Scots are the masters of playing the victim and always look to Ireland/N. Ireland for their vindication. Like I said, Varadkar has let the cat out of the bag. Admitting that the British have a valid point would be toe-curling to a SNAT brought up on a diet of victimhood and bigotry. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 5, 2023 11:18:41 GMT
No one can claim to represent a majority unless there is a rules based freely elected parliament.
Since there isn't, and there is a vocal popular rejection of Westminster direction, there is no one who speaks for NI.
I think it is pretty clear Boris didn't care about NI and was lucky the bus he threw it under was parked up.
As Ireland grows and becomes more moderate, I think the eventual unifying of the island won't be because of the protocol until the pro British parties die off and the voters represent a new generation.
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Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 11:29:18 GMT
why bring scottish nationalsits into it buccy?
This is a political forum , and im sure we are all free to comment on uk wide issues. Im not sure why its an axe to grind commenting on the protocol , or is this your way of shutting down uncomfortable debate?
Not at all. But the Scots are the masters of playing the victim and always look to Ireland/N. Ireland for their vindication. dont claim to speak for scotland buccy , and neither will i mate. Talk to me.
Im not a victim. There. Is that good enough for you?
i look forward to the protocol being ended , and you regaining your hapiness buccy. I do warn you though , i believe it will be 2024 before you see anything concrete , and it will be done either way by stormont voting.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 5, 2023 12:09:35 GMT
Obviously they have a problem with something otherwise they would be taking their seats at stormont. They can sit off in a huff all day , thats up to them....meanwhile northern ireland is still using the NIP and part of the eu to all extents and purposes.........different from the rest of the uk. The refusal of unionists to participate is preventing the complete implementation of the Protocol - which is why the EU are currently taking us to court and preventing implementation The introduction of the protocol changes the status of NI against the express wishes of one community - the GFA is supposed to prevent that happening. You are still not getting it - the GFA removed majority rule. It gave both communities a veto irrespective of the majority opinion - that is precisely what it was designed to do. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 5, 2023 12:20:22 GMT
Obviously they have a problem with something otherwise they would be taking their seats at stormont. They can sit off in a huff all day , thats up to them....meanwhile northern ireland is still using the NIP and part of the eu to all extents and purposes.........different from the rest of the uk. The refusal of unionists to participate is preventing the complete implementation of the Protocol - which is why the EU are currently taking us to court The protocol was implemented. The court case from last june as i understand it was the eu taking the uk gov to court over the uk gov latterly removing elements of it. Unionists refusing to participate is nothing to do with it.
The unionists if you remember have been against it from day one.....both the uk and eu bypassed them and implemented it.
sorry mate you are arguing black is white here. It s been implemented.
Its the later post implementation tinkering by the uk that is causing disagreement.
It does i fully agree. The pre implementation discussion between various parties was the time to bring this up.......the uk ignored the unionists disagreement of it , the GFA and went ahead anyway.
Either unionist or nationalsit was going to get shafted , for some strange reason boris chose to shaft unionism , i suspect under heavy threat from Bidens USA.
Sorry pacifico , its you that isnt getting it. The uk governemnt chose majority vote in the consent mechanism. It was the uk gov who overode the GFA , because they saw no choice as i said , as one side or the other would have disagreed.
Boris johnson saw the consent mechanism as it stands as the lesser of two evils , and was happy to shaft unionism in northern ireland.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 5, 2023 18:23:23 GMT
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Post by thomas on Jan 6, 2023 9:10:29 GMT
I read your link mate , and it seems to back up what im saying about the protocol being implemented already , and then the uk governments new legisaltion that was proposed last june scrapping elements of it then forcing the EU to take the uk government to court.
To recap , the court case isnt about failure to implement the protocal ,its the post protocol legislation that the uk government has passed last june that arose (from the uk governments own mouth)of the alleged difficulties in trading businesses in northen ireland faced due to the implementation of the protocol.
If the protocal hadnt been implemented as you claim in the first place , then the uk government wouldnt have an argument to claim the protocol wasnt working for N.I businesses and people , and therefore wouldnt have had to have implemented post protocol legislation to overturn parts of it?
Im not sure whats difficult pacifico. Surely its a pretty poor hill to die on arguing over such a silly issue?
Jonhson was the uk prime minister .The GFA is an international treaty between the uk government and the irish government regarding the 6 counties. Of course what johnson did is relevant.
Thats your opinion. The people of northern ireland through their elected representatives will have a vote on it in 2024 , and if they dont agree with the protocl , then they can end it and take northern ireland out , if they do , they can continue it.
You cant say fairer than that.
If unionists dont like it , then let northern ireland have a border poll on remaining in brexit uk , or leaving and rejoining the republic in the EU.
Unionists were happy with a sectarian apartheid state ? Im sure they were.
No you are putting words in my mouth. I support the GFA.
We spoke about the gordian knot further back in the thread of brexit being incompatible with the GFA. One side or the other must be let down.....your government chose to let down the unionist minority.
You cant claim to champion the GFA one minute when it suits , when brexit is the cause of the breaking of the GFA. As you were told pre 2016.
Your own prime minister told you this.....Theresa may , when she suggested the whole uk remain in the customes unions to(in part) honour the GFA , as no other route was workable without pissing off one community or the other. 
Im sorry brexit isnt compatible with the GFA , but there you are.
I think the protocol should remain for now , then let the northern irish vote.
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