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Post by Steve on Dec 27, 2022 21:15:23 GMT
Yes it is probably still the larger problem (NI terrorism is still a huge threat) and there are various things we could and should do especially is the area of extremist Imans but blaming and insulting all muslims (many of whom see rigorous Islam as being absurd) isn't one of them. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 27, 2022 21:19:55 GMT
Yes it is probably still the larger problem (NI terrorism is still a huge threat) and there are various things we could and should do especially is the area of extremist Imans but blaming and insulting all muslims (many of whom see rigorous Islam as being absurd) isn't one of them. In a free country, detecting self-initiated terrorists – who often don’t reveal their plans to anyone, and can move quickly and sometimes spontaneously from intent to violence – is an inherently hard challenge. A challenge which is compounded by the complex mix, often, of extremist ideology with personal grievance and individual vulnerability such as mental ill-health. This poses pressing questions about how different elements of the State should best join up to manage risk to the public, effectively and proportionately. - See more at: www.mi5.gov.uk/news/director-general-ken-mccallum-gives-annual-threat-update#sthash.IledAGGp.Py5eD49n.dpufNo probably about it Steve. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 27, 2022 21:30:34 GMT
The whole article is a good read
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Post by sheepy on Dec 27, 2022 22:28:13 GMT
I guessed it would be.
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Post by see2 on Dec 27, 2022 22:40:50 GMT
If one uses actual facts then I don't doubt that sooner or later Muslims will begin to catch on. Add that to the existence of the many Muslims who already question the faith who will be reassured of their doubts, and progress can be made over time. It may be an idea to openly accept there's a problem, and to encourage Muslim communities to accept there's a problem, rather than hushing it up and not speaking about it in case someone like Steve becomes 'offended'. According to the security services Islamist extremism is a problem in this country, sadly as with Pakistani grooming gangs, people like Steve insist it's a taboo subject that should never be mentioned, perish the thought some spineless lefty should be become offended. Before a problem can be addressed it has to be accepted that a problem exists. That there is an open problem with some Muslims is already known and Muslim societies don't appear to know how to handle it. Which is little wonder since many Muslim conflicts have been fighting each other one way or another ever since the Islamic Civil War that took place shortly after the death of Muhammad. To fight the 'enemy' within Islam the religion, one needs first to understand the 'enemy'. That is the starting for me, repeating that which has already been done, and failed, is a non-starter. Muslims don't tend to take any notice of opposition that only seems to brings them closer together, but basic honest education about the workings of the emotional system just might light a spark of curiosity that could lead some / many of them to begin to question themselves and how to get the best out of their religion without being controlled by it. In short, how to better understand why there is so much violence and disagreement amongst some Muslim communities. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 28, 2022 0:43:35 GMT
Any more shallow broad brushisms you're going to post See2?
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 28, 2022 10:22:34 GMT
So you're conceding the point, good man. Islamic terrorism is indeed rife in this non-Islamic country and has been for decades. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 28, 2022 10:42:00 GMT
So you're conceding the point, good man. Islamic terrorism is indeed rife in this non-Islamic country and has been for decades. Not rife but terrorism by extreme Islamists is the largest of several current UK terrorism threats we have. Acting immorally and worse as their recruiting sergeant is not the way to address that. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 28, 2022 11:04:43 GMT
It may be an idea to openly accept there's a problem, and to encourage Muslim communities to accept there's a problem, rather than hushing it up and not speaking about it in case someone like Steve becomes 'offended'. According to the security services Islamist extremism is a problem in this country, sadly as with Pakistani grooming gangs, people like Steve insist it's a taboo subject that should never be mentioned, perish the thought some spineless lefty should be become offended. Before a problem can be addressed it has to be accepted that a problem exists. That there is an open problem with some Muslims is already known and Muslim societies don't appear to know how to handle it. Which is little wonder since many Muslim conflicts have been fighting each other one way or another ever since the Islamic Civil War that took place shortly after the death of Muhammad. To fight the 'enemy' within Islam the religion, one needs first to understand the 'enemy'. That is the starting for me, repeating that which has already been done, and failed, is a non-starter. Muslims don't tend to take any notice of opposition that only seems to brings them closer together, but basic honest education about the workings of the emotional system just might light a spark of curiosity that could lead some / many of them to begin to question themselves and how to get the best out of their religion without being controlled by it. In short, how to better understand why there is so much violence and disagreement amongst some Muslim communities. It's an interesting fact that Muslims in the US are far more integrated into society than Muslims in the UK, or EU for that matter, but I'll concentrate on the UK. A while back I posted about an Imam who visited every Mosque in the UK to find out for himself if extremism was a problem in UK mosques, his findings were not encouraging. In some mosques Isis flags were clearly on display and anti English/British sentiment was fairly common, in some mosques he said hatred toward infidels was openly encouraged. He visited the US to see what the situation was like there. He discovered US Muslims were far more integrated into US life than here in the UK. He said in the US it was not uncommon to see the stars & stripes hanging on walls in mosques and generally US Muslims were proud to be Americans. He delved into this more deeply and concluded that the reason, or at least part of the reason why Muslims in the US are better integrated is because the labour market is less regulated in the US than here in the UK and therefor less likely to disadvantage immigrants in employment. Also, the UK has a far more generous welfare system that provides extensive benefits and also significant obstacles to integration because it reduces the incentive to work which encourages immigrants to isolate themselves within their own communities. There was a lot more which I cant remember, I will endeavor to find the relevant link. It was very interesting. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 28, 2022 11:16:18 GMT
Any more shallow broad brushisms you're going to post See2? Show me the broad brush sentence and I will correct it. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 28, 2022 11:26:43 GMT
Any more shallow broad brushisms you're going to post See2? Show me the broad brush sentence and I will correct it. Please do . . .Muslims don't tend to take any notice of opposition that only seems to brings them closer together, but basic honest education about the workings of the emotional system just might light a spark of curiosity that could lead some / many of them to begin to question themselves and how to get the best out of their religion without being controlled by it. In short, how to better understand why there is so much violence and disagreement amongst some Muslim communities. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 28, 2022 11:27:03 GMT
That there is an open problem with some Muslims is already known and Muslim societies don't appear to know how to handle it. Which is little wonder since many Muslim conflicts have been fighting each other one way or another ever since the Islamic Civil War that took place shortly after the death of Muhammad. To fight the 'enemy' within Islam the religion, one needs first to understand the 'enemy'. That is the starting for me, repeating that which has already been done, and failed, is a non-starter. Muslims don't tend to take any notice of opposition that only seems to brings them closer together, but basic honest education about the workings of the emotional system just might light a spark of curiosity that could lead some / many of them to begin to question themselves and how to get the best out of their religion without being controlled by it. In short, how to better understand why there is so much violence and disagreement amongst some Muslim communities. It's an interesting fact that Muslims in the US are far more integrated into society than Muslims in the UK, or EU for that matter, but I'll concentrate on the UK. A while back I posted about an Imam who visited every Mosque in the UK to find out for himself if extremism was a problem in UK mosques, his findings were not encouraging. In some mosques Isis flags were clearly on display and anti English/British sentiment was fairly common, in some mosques he said hatred toward infidels was openly encouraged. He visited the US to see what the situation was like there. He discovered US Muslims were far more integrated into US life than here in the UK. He said in the US it was not uncommon to see the stars & stripes hanging on walls in mosques and generally US Muslims were proud to be Americans. He delved into this more deeply and concluded that the reason, or at least part of the reason why Muslims in the US are better integrated is because the labour market is less regulated in the US than here in the UK and therefor less likely to disadvantage immigrants in employment. Also, the UK has a far more generous welfare system that provides extensive benefits and also significant obstacles to integration because it reduces the incentive to work which encourages immigrants to isolate themselves within their own communities. There was a lot more which I cant remember, I will endeavor to find the relevant link. It was very interesting. The US is a different culture to the UK, it now has a relevantly recent history of dealing with diverse peoples and cultures. Nevertheless there are Muslim Extremist movements there. There was one up for debate not so long ago in a higher school that was very against non-Muslims. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 28, 2022 11:37:50 GMT
Show me the broad brush sentence and I will correct it. Please do . . .Muslims don't tend to take any notice of opposition that only seems to brings them closer together, but basic honest education about the workings of the emotional system just might light a spark of curiosity that could lead some / many of them to begin to question themselves and how to get the best out of their religion without being controlled by it. In short, how to better understand why there is so much violence and disagreement amongst some Muslim communities. Hmm. Showing opposition to Muslims / Islam SEEMS to bring them closer together. I think that opinion is reasonably well backed up by reality. "that could lead some / many of them". No broad brush there. "why there is so much violence and disagreement amongst some Muslim communities. " No broad brush there. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 28, 2022 11:53:32 GMT
None so blind as they that will not see. You posted 'Muslims don't tend to take any notice of opposition that only seems to brings them closer together'
broad brush condemnation as you full well know See2.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2022 13:42:16 GMT
So you're conceding the point, good man. Islamic terrorism is indeed rife in this non-Islamic country and has been for decades. Not rife but terrorism by extreme Islamists is the largest of several current UK terrorism threats we have. Acting immorally and worse as their recruiting sergeant is not the way to address that. When they do strike it results in more support for the religion of peace and an opportunity to scream racist toward the labelled Islamophobes. Plus, the state get to strip the country's liberties and introduce more draconian laws against the people. Also, Islamism (political Islam) without the bombs is still a threat to western ideals - it's more subversive and backed with an army of lawyers. Of course, this isn't limited to Islamism, we also have other groups fighting for power.
This isn't a diversitoid way of thinking, so it may trigger you.
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