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Post by Einhorn on Dec 12, 2022 15:40:49 GMT
The sovereign is the law maker. EU regulations were applied in the UK because the Parliament, the sovereign law-maker, said they were to be applied in 1972. They continued to be applied on sufferance of Parliament, the sovereign law-maker, until Parliament, the sovereign law-maker, repealed the 1972 Act. If Parliament, the sovereign law-maker, wished to repeal the 1972 Act at any time during EU membership, it could have done so, because, you've guessed it, it was sovereign. That was a long winded covering all bases definition. It is clear that the 1972 act ceded sovereignty to a different power over which the electorate, who are the sovereign power over parliament and lend that sovereignty to parliament, and it was the ceding of that sovereignty to a power over which less direct accountability could be exercised by the electorate which was the long term undoing of the EU dream. At no point before joining did the British sovereign electorate allow the ceding of their sovereignty to a foreign power in a direct vote, You just don't understand it. As I said, Law isn't for everyone. |
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Post by Toreador on Dec 12, 2022 17:38:37 GMT
11 pages now of this nonsense. And yet, you're still here lol. Someone needs to keep the theme going.  |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 12, 2022 18:54:18 GMT
That was a long winded covering all bases definition. It is clear that the 1972 act ceded sovereignty to a different power over which the electorate, who are the sovereign power over parliament and lend that sovereignty to parliament, and it was the ceding of that sovereignty to a power over which less direct accountability could be exercised by the electorate which was the long term undoing of the EU dream. At no point before joining did the British sovereign electorate allow the ceding of their sovereignty to a foreign power in a direct vote, You just don't understand it. As I said, Law isn't for everyone. Well trying to find out I find the definition somewhat broader whereby Parliament is the supreme law making body and can enact laws on any subject matter Parliament cannot bind its successor No court of law (or other body) can question the validity of Parliaments enactments I think that extended definition raises a few questions as regard sovereignty. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 12, 2022 19:42:15 GMT
And why Boris Johnson refused us a referendum on re-joining. What! FFS this is akin to banging you're head off a hard surface. The reason Boris didn't hold a referendum on joining the EU, is oddly enough because we have just had a referendum in which the majority voted to leave. I accept that as a die hard remainiac you will advocate the EU policy of endless referendums until the desired result is achieved. I say again, I'm sure you would be happier if you moved to your beloved Belgium. Not keen on Belgium. Austria lovely people. Can I go there?  Oh and I do understand that having got the result you wanted you don't want to give it up. Six and a half years and counting, still holding onto the idea of neverendums Red. Still holding onto that one vote democracy that work so well for Saddam and Putin. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 12, 2022 19:59:01 GMT
What! FFS this is akin to banging you're head off a hard surface. The reason Boris didn't hold a referendum on joining the EU, is oddly enough because we have just had a referendum in which the majority voted to leave. I accept that as a die hard remainiac you will advocate the EU policy of endless referendums until the desired result is achieved. I say again, I'm sure you would be happier if you moved to your beloved Belgium. Not keen on Belgium. Austria lovely people. Can I go there? Oh and I do understand that having got the result you wanted you don't want to give it up. Six and a half years and counting, still holding onto the idea of neverendums Red. Still holding onto that one vote democracy that work so well for Saddam and Putin. Bits of Belgium are nice, what lets it down are Belgians and Muslims, and of course the EU. I don't think I ever went to Austria, we used to go to a ski resort on the German Austrian border. Cant remember the name offhand, south of Obesrstdorf. At the top of the lifts you looked at Austria down one side of the mountain and Germany on the other. Beautiful part of the world, and largely unknown by Brits for some reason. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2022 21:04:42 GMT
 That is not a link to that speech, it's just uber Leaver Simon Heffer's ranting and even that doesn't back your assertion that Heath promised a referendum. It doesn't even show he promised a free vote in the house. I referenced the speech, I showed it was quoted in Parliament by Powell numerous times and it was never disputed by Heath. If you do not believe he said it despite the numerous quotes that seems like just denial as opposed to discussion. I have not said he promised a referendum, . . . Err yes you did The electorate (in the 1970 election) gave Heath full authority to join the EEC if he so chose on terms he saw fit. Democracy does have its deficiencies. So in 1975 Wilson renegotiated those terms and put the outcome to a referendum. And that referendum was held legally and gave massive backing to staying in on those revised terms. You may remember that Thatcher didn't have a referendum either when she further renegotiated the terms Not quite because Heath gave conditions to that full authority in 1970 which included full hearted consent of the people . . . Maybe you need a word with yourself |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 12, 2022 21:10:50 GMT
Not keen on Belgium. Austria lovely people. Can I go there? Oh and I do understand that having got the result you wanted you don't want to give it up. Six and a half years and counting, still holding onto the idea of neverendums Red. Still holding onto that one vote democracy that work so well for Saddam and Putin. Bits of Belgium are nice, what lets it down are Belgians and Muslims, and of course the EU. I don't think I ever went to Austria, we used to go to a ski resort on the German Austrian border. Cant remember the name offhand, south of Obesrstdorf. At the top of the lifts you looked at Austria down one side of the mountain and Germany on the other. Beautiful part of the world, and largely unknown by Brits for some reason. Lovely people the Austrians. Not been skiing (Snowboarding in my case) in the Bavarian alps. Did go here, just up the road from Obestdorf, stunning Neuschwanstein castle.   Just love sitting on top of a mountain with a coffee or a beer. Best thing in the world. Can't snowboard anymore my knees can't take the strain (Squash and Snowboarding killed them) So last Feb I took my two bros tobogganing in the Austrian alps. We found a 3.7mile taboggan run. Insane. Never really hurt myself snowboarding, a few split lips etc but nothing much. Tobogganing, I tried to take my brother on a bend, lost it and went over the bank, mushed my shoulder, still healing now.  |
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Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2022 21:20:17 GMT
Not keen on Belgium. Austria lovely people. Can I go there? Oh and I do understand that having got the result you wanted you don't want to give it up. Six and a half years and counting, still holding onto the idea of neverendums Red. Still holding onto that one vote democracy that work so well for Saddam and Putin. Bits of Belgium are nice, what lets it down are Belgians and Muslims, and of course the EU. I don't think I ever went to Austria, we used to go to a ski resort on the German Austrian border. Cant remember the name offhand, south of Obesrstdorf. At the top of the lifts you looked at Austria down one side of the mountain and Germany on the other. Beautiful part of the world, and largely unknown by Brits for some reason. Bill Bryson has the best summary of Austria I've seen. From his excellent 'Neither Here nor There' where on his travels he meets Thomas a German '‘Zat’s zer whole trouble wiz Austria,’ said Thomas with sudden passion, in one of the few times I actually heard him speak. ‘It’s such a lovely country, but it’s full of fucking Austrians.’We went there once many a year ago and jeez is it a beautiful place but the people are in the main so arrogant, so straight laced and insistent on people adhering to their struct rules. As for Belgium it's two countries, as different as Quebec is from British Columbia. The Dutch bit is brilliant, the French bit is dire, Brussels is well less than worth a visit, even that Atomium bored us. But we digress |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 12, 2022 21:43:28 GMT
I referenced the speech, I showed it was quoted in Parliament by Powell numerous times and it was never disputed by Heath. If you do not believe he said it despite the numerous quotes that seems like just denial as opposed to discussion. I have not said he promised a referendum, . . . Err yes you did Not quite because Heath gave conditions to that full authority in 1970 which included full hearted consent of the people . . . Maybe you need a word with yourself Is that promise of a referendum? It is a self initiated obligation to seek out that full hearted consent of parliament and people. There are many ways to ensure that. One way most definitely not to do it is to threaten, coerce and intimidate those representatives who may be able to measure that full hearted consent and vote on it. At the time referenda were pretty much not the norm. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 12, 2022 21:45:20 GMT
Bits of Belgium are nice, what lets it down are Belgians and Muslims, and of course the EU. I don't think I ever went to Austria, we used to go to a ski resort on the German Austrian border. Cant remember the name offhand, south of Obesrstdorf. At the top of the lifts you looked at Austria down one side of the mountain and Germany on the other. Beautiful part of the world, and largely unknown by Brits for some reason. Bill Bryson has the best summary of Austria I've seen. From his excellent 'Neither Here nor There' where on his travels he meets Thomas a German '‘Zat’s zer whole trouble wiz Austria,’ said Thomas with sudden passion, in one of the few times I actually heard him speak. ‘It’s such a lovely country, but it’s full of fucking Austrians.’We went there once many a year ago and jeez is it a beautiful place but the people are in the main so arrogant, so straight laced and insistent on people adhering to their struct rules. As for Belgium it's two countries, as different as Quebec is from British Columbia. The Dutch bit is brilliant, the French bit is dire, Brussels is well less than worth a visit, even that Atomium bored us. But we digress We have found Austrians friendly and kind and a good laugh. Salzburg is wonderful. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2022 21:46:11 GMT
Err yes you did Maybe you need a word with yourself Is that promise of a referendum? It is a self initiated obligation to seek out that full hearted consent of parliament and people. There are many ways to ensure that. One way most definitely not to do it is to threaten, coerce and intimidate those representatives who may be able to measure that full hearted consent and vote on it. At the time referenda were pretty much not the norm. Look you effed up, get over it. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2022 21:50:40 GMT
Bill Bryson has the best summary of Austria I've seen. From his excellent 'Neither Here nor There' where on his travels he meets Thomas a German '‘Zat’s zer whole trouble wiz Austria,’ said Thomas with sudden passion, in one of the few times I actually heard him speak. ‘It’s such a lovely country, but it’s full of fucking Austrians.’We went there once many a year ago and jeez is it a beautiful place but the people are in the main so arrogant, so straight laced and insistent on people adhering to their struct rules. As for Belgium it's two countries, as different as Quebec is from British Columbia. The Dutch bit is brilliant, the French bit is dire, Brussels is well less than worth a visit, even that Atomium bored us. But we digress We have found Austrians friendly and kind and a good laugh. Salzburg is wonderful. Not done Salzburg, likely never will but maybe I should. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 12, 2022 21:53:28 GMT
Is that promise of a referendum? It is a self initiated obligation to seek out that full hearted consent of parliament and people. There are many ways to ensure that. One way most definitely not to do it is to threaten, coerce and intimidate those representatives who may be able to measure that full hearted consent and vote on it. At the time referenda were pretty much not the norm. Look you effed up, get over it. Not at all. I like to at least make the effort to be consistent. I know a referendum was never mentioned and I did not mention it but full hearted consent can be measured in many ways as I have said; General election, MPs canvassing their constituents; even seeking polling results. He did not adopt any measure and he did not care about it. That seems obvious. It seems to be impossible for Remainers to accept this. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 12, 2022 22:00:09 GMT
Well Sandy you failed badly in those efforts to be consistent.
I said Heath had all the authority from the 1970 election result + manifesto and you pretended he didn't because you supposed he'd promised a referendum as part of the campaign. A supposition by you that was false and after several pages I got even you to admit it was never made.
So after you wasting several pages do you now accept that Heath had all the needed electoral authority the moment he won that election?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 13, 2022 10:05:09 GMT
Well Sandy you failed badly in those efforts to be consistent. I said Heath had all the authority from the 1970 election result + manifesto and you pretended he didn't because you supposed he'd promised a referendum as part of the campaign. A supposition by you that was false and after several pages I got even you to admit it was never made. So after you wasting several pages do you now accept that Heath had all the needed electoral authority the moment he won that election? I have no objection to being wrong. What I do find difficult, and I suppose I should be used to it, is those who pretend that what is written is not written and says something else entirely. I agree that Heath had authority to progress to negotiate, and join, with respect to the 1970 election and I have agreed that that is what it says. I repeat I have never said he promised a referendum. However that authority was tempered with the last paragraph I referred to and although you take the authority as verbatim for some reason you have difficulty understanding what the last paragraph says and the elucidation of Heath's intent given in speeches before the election. Most especially in speeches where he is expanding on what the manifesto says in order to clarify its message. Several pages are never wasted because it highlights those who are evasive in their views. |
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