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Post by Ripley on Oct 30, 2024 17:05:32 GMT
Reminds me of my geo-libertarian idealism (when i was young) Those when wished society ran differently would be offered their fair equal share of the common inheritance (land) and would be left to create their own society. This experience of nearly freezing to death in winter would serve as a lesson to idealistic youth about the real difficulties of creating a working society. They would come back with an appreciation for the accomplishments of their forebears that came from bitter personal experience. It would be a much better education than going to university and learning political theory. Not really Orac, there are already many thriving closed societies existing within other countries where they are actually prospering. The problem is that the govt wants to impose their values on others. One of the most famous might be the Amish, many of them more or less contribute to each other's needs and have entire communities rebuilt within days, yes days, after major disasters whereas it takes the rest of us much longer There's not really much that's idealistic about such societies, as they already exist, they just can't exist in the way they want to exist because others are imposing their will on them. The govt here has sadly been making life hell for the Amish for example and that's very sad, the govt mean well but they ought to leave them alone I've not heard of this. What is the government doing to the Amish? |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 30, 2024 17:11:43 GMT
The FDA is making life bad for Amish farmers who want to drink and sell raw milk to their own people for one
The protests by them and allied communities like Anabaptists - Mennonites etc in support of a ceasefire in Gaza were beaten and badly broken up
They are arresting youth parties, where they basically find out if they want to remain Amish - by allowing the teens to be teens for a while and have a bit of fun
There are numerous other encroaching things, but mainly it's subtle - the influence of the outside world and people bringing to them to try and make them like us which I don't think is good
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2024 17:13:12 GMT
It's easier to form such a society than, increasingly, to make it in our current societies where doing almost anything gets you in deep trouble - as does speaking out or having untoward opinions indeed - the fact that the option exists acts as competition. If it is easier to build to a new society than live in the one you have, then clearly you are doing something wrong and people should /would vote with their feet. |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 30, 2024 17:19:09 GMT
The problem is that forming such a society is going to lead to it being attacked owing to the Neoliberal consensus which says such societies can't exist.
As said above, communities like the Amish or whatever aren't being left alone - that Orania community in South Africa isn't being left alone. The govt wants to shut it down, if the Leninists got into coalition it probably would have been (not to condemn them either)
So there's no real competition, it isn't really allowed, it's a rigged market to put it in straight terms
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2024 17:37:27 GMT
The problem is that forming such a society is going to lead to it being attacked owing to the Neoliberal consensus which says such societies can't exist. Quite ironic really, considering the neo-liberals are also the ones forcing known failed societies into our territory |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 30, 2024 18:08:20 GMT
I think democracy itself has limits. Democracy can't efficiently (quickly) mend a situation in which its key institutions have been hijacked by crackpots and prannies. What we have is quite dangerous In some ways, dictatorships are more efficient Depends who is doing the dictating. For example take the Middle East. In countries like Oman and the UAE the dictatorship is doing very well (arguably better than democracy) - however then you look at Saudi and the governance is very poor. So it all depends in the quality of the dictator - which is rather pot luck. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 30, 2024 18:35:49 GMT
In some ways, dictatorships are more efficient Depends who is doing the dictating. Indeed. As an example, this forum is a kind of dictatorship, but i doubt few, if any, would argue that the rule of the moderators is anything but reasonable and wise. |
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Post by Ripley on Oct 30, 2024 23:27:30 GMT
The FDA is making life bad for Amish farmers who want to drink and sell raw milk to their own people for one The protests by them and allied communities like Anabaptists - Mennonites etc in support of a ceasefire in Gaza were beaten and badly broken up They are arresting youth parties, where they basically find out if they want to remain Amish - by allowing the teens to be teens for a while and have a bit of fun There are numerous other encroaching things, but mainly it's subtle - the influence of the outside world and people bringing to them to try and make them like us which I don't think is good Are you referring to the case of Amos Miller? He won his case in the end. |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 30, 2024 23:29:30 GMT
Isn't he just one farmer? After a long time and significant cost, and pressure to relent, he won his case and the FDA aren't just going to let that one lie either modernfarmer.com/2024/07/got-milk/He anticipates further lawsuits, they haven't let this one go and they hate being shown up in court or otherwise |
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Post by Ripley on Oct 31, 2024 0:21:14 GMT
Isn't he just one farmer? After a long time and significant cost, and pressure to relent, he won his case and the FDA aren't just going to let that one lie either modernfarmer.com/2024/07/got-milk/He anticipates further lawsuits, they haven't let this one go and they hate being shown up in court or otherwise It's my understanding that this issue is not about the ability to sell raw milk products but about state licensing. These farmers are violating state licensing laws which would permit them to sell raw milk products as long as they " commit to the testing and documentation routinely practiced by the 114 raw milk dairies that already legally operate in Pennsylvania. " www.foodsafetynews.com/2024/03/judge-invites-amos-miller-to-become-pennsylvanias-115th-licensed-raw-milk-dairy/ |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 31, 2024 0:25:52 GMT
They don't really want the fedzzz coming in and dictating how they live their lives which I suspect is the point here
He's not even allowed to give the milk to his own family, as per that ruling
People here in America really don't like it when you encroach on their closed communities and tell them what they should be doing. It's not liked, just like it's not liked over in England (where I am from by the way). I don't think they want the Fedzz coming and controlling their lives at all
All they do is practice a benign pacifist religion and they really don't need all this insane hassle. The other day there was some crazy voter fraud case tracked to Penn Amish communities as well - they really had little to do with it, some "enterprising" individuals want to come and harass them and make them part of their wonderful grand scheme
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Post by Ripley on Oct 31, 2024 0:31:53 GMT
They don't really want the fedzzz coming in and dictating how they live their lives which I suspect is the point here He's not even allowed to give the milk to his own family, as per that ruling People here in America really don't like it when you encroach on their closed communities and tell them what they should be doing. It's not liked, just like it's not liked over in England (where I am from by the way). I don't think they want the Fedzz coming and controlling their lives at all All they do is practice a benign pacifist religion and they really don't need all this insane hassle. The other day there was some crazy voter fraud case tracked to Penn Amish communities as well - they really had little to do with it, some "enterprising" individuals want to come and harass them and make them part of their wonderful grand scheme Are they okay with the SCOTUS getting into their reproductive healthcare issues? I don't suppose they like paying taxes either. What do you mean, "people here in America?" I thought you said you weren't in the US? |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 31, 2024 0:34:46 GMT
No, my "No" in the other post was a reply to your point about the US economy doing well.
(For the benefit of other members "yes" as in I'm in the USA)
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 31, 2024 0:37:12 GMT
The Amish probably don't want the Feds engaging with them on anything most likely, why would they? I'm sure many would vote Trump and want abortion banned ideally but I'm sure that they also don't want a big part in presidential elections, or in politics from what I've seen and heard of what they say
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Post by Ripley on Oct 31, 2024 0:42:02 GMT
The Amish probably don't want the Feds engaging with them on anything most likely, why would they? I'm sure many would vote Trump and want abortion banned ideally but I'm sure that they also don't want a big part in presidential elections, or in politics from what I've seen and heard of what they say I don't see the problem as far as raw milk is concerned. They can buy a permit like all the other raw dairy farmers. There have to be some controls on the food supply, don't you think, otherwise any manufacturer could put anything in it without taking responsibility for the harm it might do. And if the voters, Amish or not, vote for Trump, they're going to have the Fedzzz, as you call them, in their bedrooms and coming between them and their doctors. |
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