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Post by Pacifico on Oct 29, 2024 22:34:07 GMT
There is likely to be a push for even greater democracy than the current iterations, after this fad of strongmen dictators is over, people are understandably sick of the partial democracy we've got in much of the world and actually want even more democracy and participatory politics. They are just pushing the system to give them what they want by protest voting a lot of the time We are probably going to see a strong resurgence of democracy but a slightly better form of it in the medium to long term such as? - are you advocating Direct Democracy because it does not get any better than that. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 29, 2024 22:47:19 GMT
If America wants to join the BRICs, that is the govt's prerogative and many might see that as a potentially positive development. There's nothing all that dictatorial about Brazil which is one member of the BRICs, even the UK has largely positive relations with India too A lot of people don't see Trump as false and think he wears his heart on his sleeve and speaks off the cuff, those who have met him say they found him very authentic and that he doesn't look down on anyone My point about the Bolshevik insurrection is that a 'revolution' and insurrection can lead to anyone being installed and one should be careful what they wish for America joining the BRICs would be more likely if the the would be dictator Trump is elected. I didn't say all the countries in BRICs were dictatorships, I posted Dictatorships along with dictator like countries. Russia, China, Iran, UAE and Ethiopia are dictatorships. India is close to being a religious dictatorship under Modi, Egypt is something of a shaky democracy since 2012, Brazil is a troubled democracy full of political violence. There are some Latin American dictatorships countries that have applied for membership. BRICs may not be a dictatorship but its membership is Dominated by Dictatorships and extremist countries. |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 29, 2024 22:49:41 GMT
Pacifico:
You seem to think it's me advocating that, if I had it my way I'd live in a highly reactionary closed society, but that society must be permitted to exist and we all know the Neoliberal consensus doesn't allow such societies to exist without imposing their will on others
That said, more democracy around the world might be more permissive for such societies to exist, so I suppose it would benefit me in the long run. I'm simply saying a more improved form of democracy as we've seen throughout history, the system improves, that's how we moved from Feudalism to Capitalism in the first place or we'd still be living under Feudal rule. Maybe some form of direct democracy would work, but probably hard to do pure direct democracy for billions in countries like India or China
I don't think it's an unreasonable idea to think we're going to see more progress in our political and economic systems in the future, that is, unless we all die in nuclear oblivion with WWIII or our AI overlords take over the lot
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Post by see2 on Oct 29, 2024 22:51:46 GMT
You don't think there are any flaws whatsoever to the present democratic system? From what I can tell, you then appear to list problems with the current system No, I'm saying that its not the political system itself that is flawed, it is the way the system is abused that is the problem. It doesn't matter what system is used if it is abused then it will not perform as intended. |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 29, 2024 22:52:48 GMT
If America wants to join the BRICs, that is the govt's prerogative and many might see that as a potentially positive development. There's nothing all that dictatorial about Brazil which is one member of the BRICs, even the UK has largely positive relations with India too A lot of people don't see Trump as false and think he wears his heart on his sleeve and speaks off the cuff, those who have met him say they found him very authentic and that he doesn't look down on anyone My point about the Bolshevik insurrection is that a 'revolution' and insurrection can lead to anyone being installed and one should be careful what they wish for America joining the BRICs would be more likely if the the would be dictator Trump is elected. I didn't say all the countries in BRICs were dictatorships, I posted Dictatorships along with dictator like countries. Russia, China, Iran, UAE and Ethiopia are dictatorships. India is close to being a religious dictatorship under Modi, Egypt is something of a shaky democracy since 2012, Brazil is a troubled democracy full of political violence. There are some Latin American dictatorships countries that have applied for membership. BRICs may not be a dictatorship but its membership is Dominated by Dictatorships and extremist countries. And the West isn't perfect either. If Trump joins the BRICs I personally have little issue with that and one could call lots of countries extremist countries, simply by their old foreign policy such as invading Iraq, not that I would - I won't condemn anyone |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 29, 2024 22:56:57 GMT
You don't think there are any flaws whatsoever to the present democratic system? From what I can tell, you then appear to list problems with the current system No, I'm saying that its not the political system itself that is flawed, it is the way the system is abused that is the problem. It doesn't matter what system is used if it is abused then it will not perform as intended. So there's no flaws at all in the current system? You think the system in the UK is perfectly fine as-is? |
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Post by see2 on Oct 29, 2024 22:59:01 GMT
Any eventual outcome is in the hands of the EU Parliament. They have the last say in any changes. On any proposed changes and it is the Commission that propose changes that have to be in agreement with the Treaties. Yes, pro·pose
[prəˈpəʊz] verb put forward (a plan or suggestion) for consideration by others: |
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Post by see2 on Oct 29, 2024 23:07:21 GMT
No, I'm saying that its not the political system itself that is flawed, it is the way the system is abused that is the problem. It doesn't matter what system is used if it is abused then it will not perform as intended. So there's no flaws at all in the current system? You think the system in the UK is perfectly fine as-is? Not really, I guess there is always room for improvements, but what I am saying is that any system that is abused will not function as intended thus causing frustration and dissatisfaction with the system. Only after the abuse has been removed will it be clear to see any faults or improvements that are either necessary or are desired. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 29, 2024 23:10:33 GMT
You don't think there are any flaws whatsoever to the present democratic system? From what I can tell, you then appear to list problems with the current system No, I'm saying that its not the political system itself that is flawed, it is the way the system is abused that is the problem. It doesn't matter what system is used if it is abused then it will not perform as intended. That is probably about right, most governments are elected on trust and that trust has been eroded from Major through Blair to its absolute jettisoning by the Tories. The system relies on some integrity as regards representation; with the seeking of diversity the homogeneity of the electorate has been lost and the necessary basis of democracy 'they govern because they are of us' no longer applies to large portions of the electorate who wish to be governed by black people/Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus/anyone but whitey. It was forecast to happen almost 60 years ago and here we are, we are a microcosm of the world's petty hatreds, intolerances and bitter histories. |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 29, 2024 23:13:36 GMT
Surely the hereditary peer system, the system for electing the Commons (not proportional representation) and much else has always been significantly flawed, so much so that Labour pledged to reform it as far back as 1910 but never has
(Not a condemnation of Labour)
And I resemble all those remarks about bitter/petty everything etc
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Post by see2 on Oct 29, 2024 23:16:09 GMT
No, I'm saying that its not the political system itself that is flawed, it is the way the system is abused that is the problem. It doesn't matter what system is used if it is abused then it will not perform as intended. That is probably about right, most governments are elected on trust and that trust has been eroded from Major through Blair to its absolute jettisoning by the Tories. The system relies on some integrity as regards representation; with the seeking of diversity the homogeneity of the electorate has been lost and the necessary basis of democracy 'they govern because they are of us' no longer applies to large portions of the electorate who wish to be governed by black people/Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus/anyone but whitey. It was forecast to happen almost 60 years ago and here we are, we are a microcosm of the world's petty hatreds, intolerances and bitter histories. You are off on a tangent. The problems I refer to are the insinuated lies and derogation from the politicians, the media, and one eyed biased individuals that push their bias whenever and wherever they can. |
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Post by borgr0 on Oct 29, 2024 23:19:57 GMT
Brown didn't push his bias, he was a good man
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Post by sandypine on Oct 29, 2024 23:23:31 GMT
Surely the hereditary peer system, the system for electing the Commons (not proportional representation) and much else has always been significantly flawed, so much so that Labour pledged to reform it as far back as 1910 but never has (Not a condemnation of Labour) And I resemble all those remarks about bitter/petty everything etc The point about it all was that it worked and no one proposed any system to replace the Lords that could be agreed as better despite many attempts. As regrads the last comment I am not sure why you would find the comment troubling which I assume you do, when there are corrupt elections anywhere in Africa we get protests on the streets of London and often fighting, Tamils occupied Parliament square for months, Sunni and Shiite have been known to come to blows, anti-semitism does not arise from the far right any longer except to a small degree, Sikhs did not like meat being eaten in their community centre, the 2011 riots were very much ethnic group orientated, Lozelles riots were the same and Gaza at the last election was a significant factor as regards who represented some areas. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 29, 2024 23:26:47 GMT
That is probably about right, most governments are elected on trust and that trust has been eroded from Major through Blair to its absolute jettisoning by the Tories. The system relies on some integrity as regards representation; with the seeking of diversity the homogeneity of the electorate has been lost and the necessary basis of democracy 'they govern because they are of us' no longer applies to large portions of the electorate who wish to be governed by black people/Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus/anyone but whitey. It was forecast to happen almost 60 years ago and here we are, we are a microcosm of the world's petty hatreds, intolerances and bitter histories. You are off on a tangent. The problems I refer to are the insinuated lies and derogation from the politicians, the media, and one eyed biased individuals that push their bias whenever and wherever they can. I agree it is not the political system itself that is flawed, it is the use that is made of it. We may disagree on why that is so. I have only expanded on the reasons why it is so, that is all. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 29, 2024 23:30:58 GMT
On any proposed changes and it is the Commission that propose changes that have to be in agreement with the Treaties. Yes, pro·pose
[prəˈpəʊz] verb put forward (a plan or suggestion) for consideration by others: But if 'the others' think that x needs proposing they have to wait for the official proposers to propose it. There are also some aspects of the EU that cannot be changed such as FOM. No one can say look let us vote on stopping it, the Commission would not allow such a proposition to be made most especially if it had a chance of passing. |
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