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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 17:34:54 GMT
What lies are on that page ? Those are claims of what is possible and those claims were true. If there is any failure on the part of government, it does not alter what is possible. Wll start with 'After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU.' They knew that could never be true and it hasn't been Then there's 'The EU is a shrinking market for the UK.' when we know the figures showed the opposite. Still some people fall for % of total trade don't they. And some of the idiot promises designed to fool man down the chip shop gobshites: 'With such a broken system, it’s no surprise that the EU still doesn’t have a free trade agreement with major economies like China and India.' How's that working out? If Remain was Project Fear, Leave was Project Bullshit |
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Post by jonksy on Dec 31, 2022 17:42:44 GMT
What lies are on that page ? Those are claims of what is possible and those claims were true. If there is any failure on the part of government, it does not alter what is possible. Wll start with 'After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU.' They knew that could never be true and it hasn't been Then there's 'The EU is a shrinking market for the UK.' when we know the figures showed the opposite. Still some people fall for % of total trade don't they. And some of the idiot promises designed to fool man down the chip shop gobshites: 'With such a broken system, it’s no surprise that the EU still doesn’t have a free trade agreement with major economies like China and India.' How's that working out? If Remain was Project Fear, Leave was Project Bullshit Well your sides BS didn't bode so well with the electorate did it? remind us all of the lefties greatest defeat in living memory at the last GE? |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 18:13:16 GMT
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Post by Vinny on Dec 31, 2022 18:36:39 GMT
What lies are on that page ? Those are claims of what is possible and those claims were true. If there is any failure on the part of government, it does not alter what is possible. Wll start with 'After we Vote Leave, British businesses will trade freely with the EU.' They knew that could never be true and it hasn't been Then there's 'The EU is a shrinking market for the UK.' when we know the figures showed the opposite. Still some people fall for % of total trade don't they. And some of the idiot promises designed to fool man down the chip shop gobshites: 'With such a broken system, it’s no surprise that the EU still doesn’t have a free trade agreement with major economies like China and India.' How's that working out? If Remain was Project Fear, Leave was Project Bullshit 1) Are there tariffs on our trade with the EU ? NO. 2) In percentage terms the EU was indeed a shrinking market for the UK. 3) At the time the EU did not have a free trade agreement with China or India. There may be now, but there was not at the time, and had we remained, who knows whether they would have. Still, with China being a dictatorship I don't want a free trade agreement with China, I don't want any kind of trade with China until it has joined the civilised world and become a democracy. And as for India, their government is too friendly with Putin and appears to be quite corrupt. I'm ok waiting until reform has happened before we have an FTA with them. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 18:48:59 GMT
1. Actually there are tariffs when quotas are exceeded and you promised trading freely and there is lots of paperwork.
2. A market that is increasing in value is not a shrinking market, you might argue shrinking in relative relevance but that's a different matter
3. But you promised we'd have them and they'd be good.. We don't and they wouldn't be as you now admit but not at the relevant time
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 31, 2022 22:16:26 GMT
The problem for UK membership of the EU was that the UK economy is built on services and the EU did not have a functioning single market in services. So EU membership was a great help to goods manufacturers in Europe (mainly Germany) to export to the UK, but of very little help to the UK service sector when it came to exporting to the rest of Europe. Had the EU followed through on their promises to create a real single market in services, EU membership might have been worth more to the UK. True, but the thing about services is that they can't be tracked like goods. All we need, for example, is to provide a banking service in the EU is to set up a bank branch in the country we want to sell our services in - which is quite easy. Goods can easily be stopped at borders, but not financial services. Remember all that BS about the London Stock Exchange being in danger after Brexit. Well the LSE is still the largest in Europe.  Very true - the Project Fear stories about a great exodus of business to the Continent never happened - in fact business has got better..  |
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 1, 2023 1:45:15 GMT
There are plenty more years ahead for a competent government to get the best out of Brexit. |
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 1, 2023 1:55:22 GMT
True, but the thing about services is that they can't be tracked like goods. All we need, for example, is to provide a banking service in the EU is to set up a bank branch in the country we want to sell our services in - which is quite easy. Goods can easily be stopped at borders, but not financial services. Remember all that BS about the London Stock Exchange being in danger after Brexit. Well the LSE is still the largest in Europe. Very true - the Project Fear stories about a great exodus of business to the Continent never happened - in fact business has got better.. Project fear was tactically an epic error for remainers. Never mind all the false, scare predictions, the project decided to play on the fear of people if they voted leave. They couldn't even paint the EU in a positive light and had to rely on economic fear. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2023 7:36:56 GMT
Very true - the Project Fear stories about a great exodus of business to the Continent never happened - in fact business has got better.. Project fear was tactically an epic error for remainers. Never mind all the false, scare predictions, the project decided to play on the fear of people if they voted leave. They couldn't even paint the EU in a positive light and had to rely on economic fear. Remain depended on a negative campaign. The people, who were being abused and bullied by remain, responded with the royal salute, which was a proud moment.
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Post by Steve on Jan 1, 2023 12:27:52 GMT
There are plenty more years ahead for a competent government to get the best out of Brexit. But to the point at hand will it ever be anything better than that ~5% GDP negative impact compared to where we could have been? Truth is there are all sorts of pros and cons to the Brexit outcome, some financial some emotional (and no I'm not downrating that) but the trade outcome is looking very much not what Vote Leave promised. It could only ever be better than before IF IF IF we could get beneficial trade deals with convergent or higher wage economies. China and India very much do not qualify. Oz, Canada and Japan could but we really haven't got great deals there so it all pivots on the USA. And the USA isn't playing ball, worse they've made it clear they will always be very protectionist and lever any trade agreement as they see fit. A busted flush. On the positive side we get control of our labour market and that's it in matters of any significance. And it is a massive one IF only we had a government that had a clue how to make that of net benefit to the UK. This one doesn't. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 1, 2023 13:17:11 GMT
1. Actually there are tariffs when quotas are exceeded and you promised trading freely and there is lots of paperwork. 2. A market that is increasing in value is not a shrinking market, you might argue shrinking in relative relevance but that's a different matter 3. But you promised we'd have them and they'd be good.. We don't and they wouldn't be as you now admit but not at the relevant time The lie was buried in the term "tarriffs" which to the average punter means costs to trade. No one ever discussed "duties" which are what the customs union erases. They are what has forced many UK SME's to go out of business as those who import prefer to import from inside the EU where they don't pay duties. They also made many UK items unavailable in the EU via online trading hubs like Amazon. Shoppers just won't pay the duties. The whole leave stuff was based on fools' gold...look what we could do. Of course that leaves it up to the imagination of the voter...who had little idea of what life is like outside the EU. They could be told anything and dazzled by suggestion and glittering garbage. Of course the UK could do anything outside the EU...build a space programme, discover oil under Devon, reclaim the commonwealth...rediscover its greatness. And just enough people were dazzled by the simplicity of the idea. And now look at what we got. The leader of the leavers turned out to be a self interested sozzle more interested in power and parties than governing, and since 2016 the country hasn't been governed in any meaningful way. All those opportunities...where have they been taken up? What is better now than then? Sure we will have to make the best of the snakeoil but what a stupid decision designed to impress by fabulous dreams. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 2, 2023 6:46:14 GMT
Your side failed to make a case for membership.
David Cameron promised reform and failed to get what he asked for.
The EU costs far more to be in than a comparable free trade organisation such as EFTA.
Industrial decline in our country was taking place throughout our membership of the EU and the EEC before it.
People were tired.
There are deprived areas of our country long forgotten as the industrial heart had been ripped out and moved away to a cheaper area of the EU's customs union.
From vehicle manufacturing to food, what was supposed to be good for British industry merely resulted in decline.
The snake oil was yours.
Consider how many Ford cars have been made here since the 2000s (none). Peugeot's Ryton plant was closed and demolished.
EU membership wasn't working.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jan 2, 2023 7:44:53 GMT
1. Actually there are tariffs when quotas are exceeded and you promised trading freely and there is lots of paperwork. 2. A market that is increasing in value is not a shrinking market, you might argue shrinking in relative relevance but that's a different matter 3. But you promised we'd have them and they'd be good.. We don't and they wouldn't be as you now admit but not at the relevant time The lie was buried in the term "tarriffs" which to the average punter means costs to trade. No one ever discussed "duties" which are what the customs union erases. They are what has forced many UK SME's to go out of business as those who import prefer to import from inside the EU where they don't pay duties. They also made many UK items unavailable in the EU via online trading hubs like Amazon. Shoppers just won't pay the duties. The whole leave stuff was based on fools' gold...look what we could do. Of course that leaves it up to the imagination of the voter...who had little idea of what life is like outside the EU. They could be told anything and dazzled by suggestion and glittering garbage. Of course the UK could do anything outside the EU...build a space programme, discover oil under Devon, reclaim the commonwealth...rediscover its greatness. And just enough people were dazzled by the simplicity of the idea. And now look at what we got. The leader of the leavers turned out to be a self interested sozzle more interested in power and parties than governing, and since 2016 the country hasn't been governed in any meaningful way. All those opportunities...where have they been taken up? What is better now than then? Sure we will have to make the best of the snakeoil but what a stupid decision designed to impress by fabulous dreams. What a pile of nonsense. There are no tariffs, no quotas and no duty to pay on exports to the EU - provided the goods are made in the UK. There has to be this proviso to prevent the UK being a conduit for other countries selling to the EU. The only difference now is that the buyer has to pay VAT in the destination country. The "barrier" to trade now is that exports now have to be accompanied by various documents (including customs declarations) which the EU has weaponised and checks are made on a high proportion of loads (far more than imports from countries other than the UK) and rejected for any trivial reason they can find. Switzerland also has to obey the same rules (being a third party country and neither in the Single Market nor the Customs Union) and they seem to trade with very little friction. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 2, 2023 9:40:32 GMT
Britain makes very little wholly within itself. It has for a long time assembled things it imports.
I know of someone who lives in Germany who likes British motorbikes. He used to order parts from the UK and didn't pay any extra oncosts.
Today he gets his parts from within the EU because it costs too much from the UK.
This is one exam0le of why UK businesses are having such a hard time. The internal market is tiny to compete with the whole of the EU.
Switzerland has numerous trade deals with the EU. Its position is not comparable to the UK's.
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Post by Toreador on Jan 2, 2023 10:36:01 GMT
Britain makes very little wholly within itself. It has for a long time assembled things it imports. I know of someone who lives in Germany who likes British motorbikes. He used to order parts from the UK and didn't pay any extra oncosts. Today he gets his parts from within the EU because it costs too much from the UK. This is one exam0le of why UK businesses are having such a hard time. The internal market is tiny to compete with the whole of the EU. Switzerland has numerous trade deals with the EU. Its position is not comparable to the UK's. Of course your friend buys from Germany, that was the whole purpose of our entry, it is why we have less industry and Germany has more. Your friend pays oncosts levied by Germany. |
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