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Post by Steve on Dec 30, 2022 13:42:41 GMT
That just demonstrates a sizeable percentage of UK imports and exports has shifted away from the EU. If the EU was this Utopian "free trade block" rejoiners wanted us to believe those figures should be reversed. Was always going to be thus, the growth in world trade has for decades been in no small part the emerging nations. But to pretend our trade with the EU (only our largest trading partner) was diminishing when it wasn't or is in any way less than vital isn't just dumb it's dishonest |
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Post by buccaneer on Dec 30, 2022 13:46:01 GMT
That just demonstrates a sizeable percentage of UK imports and exports has shifted away from the EU. If the EU was this Utopian "free trade block" rejoiners wanted us to believe those figures should be reversed. Was always going to be thus, the growth in world trade has for decades been in no small part the emerging nations. But to pretend our trade with the EU (only our largest trading partner) was diminishing when it wasn't or is in any way less than vital isn't just dumb it's dishonest If that was always the case then the pricey cost of membership and all the red tape attached, and the "pooling of sovereignty" wasn't worth it. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 30, 2022 14:06:21 GMT
Was always going to be thus, the growth in world trade has for decades been in no small part the emerging nations. But to pretend our trade with the EU (only our largest trading partner) was diminishing when it wasn't or is in any way less than vital isn't just dumb it's dishonest If that was always the case then the pricey cost of membership and all the red tape attached, and the "pooling of sovereignty" wasn't worth it. If as seems likely that ~£10B net price and pooling of the least important parts of our sovereignty is costing us ~ £100B a year in GDP then maybe not. |
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Post by Vinny on Dec 30, 2022 16:20:14 GMT
1999 54.1% of our exports.
2007 50.4% of our exports.
2013 44.7% of our exports.
2015 42.6% of our exports.
Your own graph demonstrates my point.
A smaller and smaller percentage of our exports were going to the EU.
We were doing less and less exports to it.
How low would the percentage have to fall before even the most ideological of supporters, recognised that it wasn't working in our favour ?
And how much of a trade deficit would we have to have with it before everyone was unhappy ?
I looked at the details, it wasn't working for me.
Simple as that.
And now we're out.
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Post by Steve on Dec 30, 2022 21:16:38 GMT
1999 54.1% of our exports. 2007 50.4% of our exports. 2013 44.7% of our exports. 2015 42.6% of our exports. Your own graph demonstrates my point. A smaller and smaller percentage of our exports were going to the EU. We were doing less and less exports to it. How low would the percentage have to fall before even the most ideological of supporters, recognised that it wasn't working in our favour ? And how much of a trade deficit would we have to have with it before everyone was unhappy ? I looked at the details, it wasn't working for me. Simple as that. And now we're out. So you're changing your story because you were proven wrong but don't want to admit it. Our trade with the EU was increasing until we left, fact. |
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Post by Vinny on Dec 30, 2022 21:56:48 GMT
I have been saying this for years and referring to the percentages as evidence.
You are quite right that AFTER our vote to leave, the percentage of trade with the EU picked up.
The pound fell in value making our exports more affordable, it would not have fallen in value in the way that it did, had we voted to stay.
As such you have no idea what would have happened, from 2016 onwards trade wise if we hadn't left, and neither do I, but going by the pre existing trend of decreasing percentages, my guess was the rest of the world becoming our bigger market and the EU being a decreasing percentage of our exported trade. As such, I saw no reason to stay, even if in the short term there would be upheaval, there was already upheaval.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 31, 2022 7:44:03 GMT
The problem for UK membership of the EU was that the UK economy is built on services and the EU did not have a functioning single market in services. So EU membership was a great help to goods manufacturers in Europe (mainly Germany) to export to the UK, but of very little help to the UK service sector when it came to exporting to the rest of Europe.
Had the EU followed through on their promises to create a real single market in services, EU membership might have been worth more to the UK.
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 31, 2022 8:53:21 GMT
The problem for UK membership of the EU was that the UK economy is built on services and the EU did not have a functioning single market in services. So EU membership was a great help to goods manufacturers in Europe (mainly Germany) to export to the UK, but of very little help to the UK service sector when it came to exporting to the rest of Europe. Had the EU followed through on their promises to create a real single market in services, EU membership might have been worth more to the UK. True, but the thing about services is that they can't be tracked like goods. All we need, for example, is to provide a banking service in the EU is to set up a bank branch in the country we want to sell our services in - which is quite easy. Goods can easily be stopped at borders, but not financial services. Remember all that BS about the London Stock Exchange being in danger after Brexit. Well the LSE is still the largest in Europe.  |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 31, 2022 10:48:20 GMT
That just demonstrates a trend that a percentage of UK imports and exports has shifted away from the EU. If the EU was this Utopian "free trade block" rejoiners wanted us to believe those figures should be reversed. What would be even better would be a positive trade balance for the pricey cost of being a member. It demonstrates the strength and number of trade deals the EU has made with non members. Obviously there are more than 27 of them. Since the UK took them over after Brexit, the UK should be benefitting too. The question is, why is it not? |
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Post by oracle75 on Dec 31, 2022 10:50:49 GMT
Was always going to be thus, the growth in world trade has for decades been in no small part the emerging nations. But to pretend our trade with the EU (only our largest trading partner) was diminishing when it wasn't or is in any way less than vital isn't just dumb it's dishonest If that was always the case then the pricey cost of membership and all the red tape attached, and the "pooling of sovereignty" wasn't worth it. Red tape?? Ask traders if they now have less or more red tape. This is yet another of those lying promises some still believe. |
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Post by Vinny on Dec 31, 2022 11:45:40 GMT
That just demonstrates a trend that a percentage of UK imports and exports has shifted away from the EU. If the EU was this Utopian "free trade block" rejoiners wanted us to believe those figures should be reversed. What would be even better would be a positive trade balance for the pricey cost of being a member. It demonstrates the strength and number of trade deals the EU has made with non members. Obviously there are more than 27 of them. Since the UK took them over after Brexit, the UK should be benefitting too. The question is, why is it not? Erm no it doesn't. These were the trade deals the EU had as of 2016: Most of those are not big markets. And many of those deals are not full free trade deals (hence "modernisation" negotiations taking place). www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21The country we do the most trade with is the USA, which in 2016 we exported as near as makes no difference £100,000,000,000 to. There was and still is no FTA with the USA. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 11:52:54 GMT
Well that list is so 2016 so misses Japan (where the EU got a better deal that we did) and it also misses the massive EEA agreement (Norway etc)
And remember the actual issue with the USA is not so much getting an FTA with them but making sure they keep to their WTO obligations. And again the EU has a far better record than the UK there. Because they have far more muscle that an isolated UK. The USA talks 'special relationship' with the UK but it really never adheres to it in trade terms.
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Post by Vinny on Dec 31, 2022 12:46:55 GMT
Well that list is so 2016. So was the referendum. |
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Post by Steve on Dec 31, 2022 12:59:26 GMT
Well that list is so 2016. So was the referendum. And today is 2022. tomorrow will be 2023 and your leave government has done pathetically delivering those trade deals A reminder of what they promised and how they lied: www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_trade.html |
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Post by Vinny on Dec 31, 2022 15:27:01 GMT
What lies are on that page ?
Those are claims of what is possible and those claims were true.
If there is any failure on the part of government, it does not alter what is possible.
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Never a good look - did a 