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Post by see2 on Oct 16, 2024 18:39:25 GMT
Or will Reform UK simply split the "Right" vote and continue to allow either a Labour government OR a Labour / Lib Dem coalition. Its a real conundrum for the Tory Party, some say co-operate with Reform UK, or even amalgamate, which would upset a lot of traditional Tory voters and some MPs, or try to defeat them. So labours great hope for staying in power is that reform split the right in england , ( similarly the independence movement remains split in scotland) and labour fall into power time and again with 80% of the overall electorate not supporting them? Wow. What a fucking future . This shows why your party is not fit to be in govenment. No clue , no hope , no vision , just reliance on an anti democratic system and bumbling along in power enjoying the ride at our expense. You really are shysters of the highest order. Don't be silly thomas, your opinions are based on your everlasting bias ^^. Good for the local lads in the local pub but that's it. I think you would be well advised to start looking for a new Crystal Ball. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 16, 2024 18:43:26 GMT
It's incredible to watch these 'one party for all' goofs fake concern. What they are worried about is a political party of any sort that represents the bulk of the UK population. And that would be centrist party governing "for the many not the few". |
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Post by see2 on Oct 16, 2024 18:46:39 GMT
Nigel Farage is Adolf Hitler. That makes a lot of sense The attempt to keep the UK's pubs open and limit immigration is roughly equivalent to the attempt to rule Europe and exterminate the Jews My post was about there being Rightists in many. probably most, countries, not the production of a Hitler style absolute extremism. He doesn't have to be as bad as Hitler in order to reek serious damage in and, from this country. |
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Post by Orac on Oct 16, 2024 19:30:05 GMT
It's incredible to watch these 'one party for all' goofs fake concern. What they are worried about is a political party of any sort that represents the bulk of the UK population. And that would be centrist party governing "for the many not the few". That may have been true 50 years ago. Those parties have now moved absurdly far to the left, leaving most of the population occupying the centre (a centre you call the extremist right) |
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Post by Orac on Oct 16, 2024 19:32:54 GMT
Nigel Farage is Adolf Hitler. That makes a lot of sense The attempt to keep the UK's pubs open and limit immigration is roughly equivalent to the attempt to rule Europe and exterminate the Jews My post was about there being Rightists in many. probably most, countries, not the production of a Hitler style absolute extremism. He doesn't have to be as bad as Hitler in order to reek serious damage in and, from this country. If you don'r mean to reference Hitler or Hitler type policies, then you shouldn't really be talking about Hitler |
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 16, 2024 19:54:26 GMT
Thanks for your well thought through reply. If the Tories get more seats than Reform at the next election then they are by definition not dead. I didn't say they were. You missed the point. If you want to make a point then you need to do better than pithy 3 worders. Doesn't help the conversation or the audience to understand what you're trying to say. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 16, 2024 21:59:33 GMT
Oh get off your high horse Andrew..  |
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Post by thomas on Oct 17, 2024 6:48:20 GMT
Nigel Farage is Adolf Hitler. That makes a lot of sense The attempt to keep the UK's pubs open and limit immigration is roughly equivalent to the attempt to rule Europe and exterminate the Jews exactly. Loopy loos hyperbole in the previous post you were referring to beyond ridicule. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 17, 2024 9:13:06 GMT
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 17, 2024 12:22:12 GMT
I have say, and it's with a heavy heart, I agree. I'm a Tory who voted Reform. But the Tories were the architects of the own demise. Labour weren't good, they won because the Tories were bad. I don't think the Tories will recover, not over the next five years, and that's because the opposition cant change anything. Over the next five years we will, in my opinion, see the Tory opposition promise the world, Labour ignoring the majority, and Reform UK growing. I think we agree on the first paragraph, with regards to the second, why did the Tories collapse so dramatically between 2019 and 2024? To blame it on the Tories not being right enough from 2010 doesn't seem to fit, as Cameron, May and Johnson had all won elections during that time. Andrew, I can sum it up in one word, 'Immigration'. The Tories lost support of their core voters largely because of immigration. Every Tory PM since 2010 has promised to cut immigration, and they said that because they knew the voters wanted it, yet under every PM immigration went up. Hence the fall of the Tories and the rise of Reform UK. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 17, 2024 12:51:23 GMT
I think we agree on the first paragraph, with regards to the second, why did the Tories collapse so dramatically between 2019 and 2024? To blame it on the Tories not being right enough from 2010 doesn't seem to fit, as Cameron, May and Johnson had all won elections during that time. Andrew, I can sum it up in one word, 'Immigration'. The Tories lost support of their core voters largely because of immigration. Every Tory PM since 2010 has promised to cut immigration, and they said that because they it was what the voters wanted, yet under every PM immigration went up. Hence the fall of the Tories and the rise of Reform UK. So why did the Tories do so well in 2019 when immigration was high? If immigration is the reason for the Tory fall (and I don't entirely go with that theory, although it's a factor), why was this failure rewarded previously, and what snapped between 2019 and 2024? My theory is they are trying to pander to the votes for those who want lower migration, but realise that both from a workforce point of view and from an economic point of view immigration is needed. The Tories were advocating something they knew they couldn't do. It didn't matter who was in charge, there was still going to be a lot of migration. I think we'd both agree it was too high, and reducing it is the right thing to do. I think some people thought that Brexit would stop immigration, I've no idea why as the leave campaign never claimed that, but it did change where people came from, for better or worse. What happened between 2019 was quite clear to me. Boris promised 40 new hospitals, which was an exaggeration and then got delayed. Public services are now a joke, court delays are years, driving tests are years, nhs waiting lists are years, housing lists are years, planning is years, crime is rampant but prisons are full with no plans for expansion such as we have to have an early release scheme... People want competent government. Neither Boris nor Truss were able to deliver that. People voted against Sunak, including yourself, so we'll not know what he may have done in the long term. Fwiw i think he would have been an improvement on his 2 predecessors. People wanted a change. Yes, immigration is an issue, but to say that it was the only factor I feel is missing the point. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 17, 2024 12:55:12 GMT
And that would be centrist party governing "for the many not the few". That may have been true 50 years ago. Those parties have now moved absurdly far to the left, leaving most of the population occupying the centre (a centre you call the extremist right) Its words and attitudes that decide what a Rightist or a Leftist is. It seems that an underlying need to not be associated with the Far-Right is now allowing the hard-right to pretend they are the moderate centre-right. It just doesn't work that way. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 17, 2024 13:02:14 GMT
I think we agree on the first paragraph, with regards to the second, why did the Tories collapse so dramatically between 2019 and 2024? To blame it on the Tories not being right enough from 2010 doesn't seem to fit, as Cameron, May and Johnson had all won elections during that time. Andrew, I can sum it up in one word, 'Immigration'. The Tories lost support of their core voters largely because of immigration. Every Tory PM since 2010 has promised to cut immigration, and they said that because they it was what the voters wanted, yet under every PM immigration went up. Hence the fall of the Tories and the rise of Reform UK. I think it is a bit harsh to refer to all migrants as immigrants when the vast majority are asylum seekers i.e. outside of any normal immigration and emigration system. They are a problem in their own sense. |
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Post by om15 on Oct 17, 2024 13:07:20 GMT
You are completely right, and the blame for this situation must lie with Cameron, May, Johnson and Sunak, the latter also bearing responsibility for the huge Labour majority. There is no doubt about that and the Tories have much to be guilty and repentant about, not least the incompetence, bare faced lies and cowardice of the last five years.
However, a Labour Government was voted in to improve things, and indeed the Prime Minister himself promised as much, the end to sleeze, working people supported, a government that puts the Country first, and look at what we have got, a dishonest and shabby front bench, riddled with corruption and taking bribes from all and sundry, creation of two tier governance, no attempt to address immigration, the NHS, support for small business or education. You must see why many people, including Labour voters are aghast at what is happening, Starmer and his gang are modeling themselves on Stalin and his henchmen, the only thing missing is gulags to sent Tory voters to, we are in a mess and only the most myopic can't see that.
Only Reform are voicing this and I suspect that next year will bring much more success to them in the current Labour constituencies.
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Post by jonksy on Oct 17, 2024 13:10:29 GMT
Andrew, I can sum it up in one word, 'Immigration'. The Tories lost support of their core voters largely because of immigration. Every Tory PM since 2010 has promised to cut immigration, and they said that because they it was what the voters wanted, yet under every PM immigration went up. Hence the fall of the Tories and the rise of Reform UK. If immigration is the reason for the Tory fall (and I don't entirely go with that theory, although it's a factor), why was this failure rewarded previously, and what snapped between 2019 and 2024? My theory is they are trying to pander to the votes for those who want lower migration, but realise that both from a workforce point of view and from an economic point of view immigration is needed. The Tories were advocating something they knew they couldn't do. It didn't matter who was in charge, there was still going to be a lot of migration. I think we'd both agree it was too high, and reducing it is the right thing to do. I think some people thought that Brexit would stop immigration, I've no idea why as the leave campaign never claimed that, but it did change where people came from, for better or worse. What happened between 2019 was quite clear to me. Boris promised 40 new hospitals, which was an exaggeration and then got delayed. Public services are now a joke, court delays are years, driving tests are years, nhs waiting lists are years, housing lists are years, planning is years, crime is rampant but prisons are full with no plans for expansion such as we have to have an early release scheme... People want competent government. Neither Boris nor Truss were able to deliver that. People voted against Sunak, including yourself, so we'll not know what he may have done in the long term. Fwiw i think he would have been an improvement on his 2 predecessors. People wanted a change. Yes, immigration is an issue, but to say that it was the only factor I feel is missing the point. Because Boris stated that he would get brexit done and you and the other staunch remaniacs didn't like that. We had the usual left trying to thwart a referendum which probably had one of the greatest turn outs in history by the voting public and your side lost. You can't even be truthful with yourself FFS Andrea... |
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