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Post by see2 on Oct 16, 2024 10:19:23 GMT
The previous Conservative government was Right of centre / moderate (John Major), a proponent of compasionate capitalism, and the EU, and Margaret Thatcher would have detested the caustic rhetoric of right wing populism with its unbritish attacks on immigrants and foreigners. Edward Heath was a moderate, as was all of the great British Conservative Prime Ministers of the 20th century, Harold MacMillan etc. Nigel Farage and his band of merry men are a far cry away from traditional Conservative values, and a lot of traditional Tory voters would puke at the thought of such people been in positions of power. Ive said for years that the Labour Party , Tony Blairs behaviour in power last time around , flooding the uk with migrants from Eastern Europe from 2004 onwards , was a large reason behind brexit in 2016. Labour didnt listen , they thought they knew best , as they so often do , and planted the seeds that were to grow massively much to their disdain. This article here explains in part why labour were responsible for the rise in UKIP. It's from 2013 , and is a devastating critique of the party and what it became under the blairities . I agree with Red Rackham and many others. The English , like us Scottish , have had enough of the Westminster party. When ordinary average middle ground voters flock to vote reform uk in england , because of starmers behaviour in power , and the centrist right vacuum that the tories have become out of power , dont say you havent been warned... wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-are-to-blame-for-ukip/#more-33702im calling it now. I think reform uk are going to be either king makers in a hung uk parliament come the next general election , or the largest party. Screaming "far right" in horror to the English isnt going to wash anymore than screaming "tartan tories " or ethno nationalists" did against the snp in scotland. There are always naive fools, probably in every country, that fall for Far-Right propaganda, that is proven to be true by the successes of Pinochet, Galtieri, Franco and Hitler. There were even Brits and French people willing to fight alongside the Nazis. Along with many supporters in other countries, there was even a Muslim Brigade fighting for them. The dangers from Rightists is written large in history, but Rightists are far too naively arrogant to learn from history.
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Post by Orac on Oct 16, 2024 10:31:43 GMT
Nigel Farage is Adolf Hitler. That makes a lot of sense
The attempt to keep the UK's pubs open and limit immigration is roughly equivalent to the attempt to rule Europe and exterminate the Jews
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 16, 2024 10:36:06 GMT
Don't think that many would disagree with that analysis. Reform's motive was clear - to destroy the Tories. You got exactly what you voted for. The Tories have 5 years to recover. The Tories destroyed themselves. Reform just delivered the coup de grace. The Tories are over. For that to be true you'd be expecting more Reform MPs than Tory at the next election. 5 years is a long time in politics for sure, but that's a brave prediction.
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Post by Orac on Oct 16, 2024 10:41:22 GMT
I remember talking to a poster named Brian years ago (2013-2015) on the old site. He is (maybe was) a conservative and I expressed the opinion that, if the conservatives wanted to disarm the 'Brexit' movement, all they needed to do was limit immigration to something sensible (say 10,00 a year). Needless to say, he dismissed the notion.
This is just the same argument again but further along and after further suicidal doubling down by the Conservatives
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 16, 2024 10:41:27 GMT
Reform's motive was clear - to destroy the Tories. You got exactly what you voted for. The Tories have 5 years to recover. I have say, and it's with a heavy heart, I agree. I'm a Tory who voted Reform. But the Tories were the architects of the own demise. Labour weren't good, they won because the Tories were bad. I don't think the Tories will recover, not over the next five years, and that's because the opposition cant change anything. Over the next five years we will, in my opinion, see the Tory opposition promise the world, Labour ignoring the majority, and Reform UK growing. I think we agree on the first paragraph, with regards to the second, why did the Tories collapse so dramatically between 2019 and 2024? To blame it on the Tories not being right enough from 2010 doesn't seem to fit, as Cameron, May and Johnson had all won elections during that time.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 16, 2024 10:43:35 GMT
The Tories destroyed themselves. Reform just delivered the coup de grace. The Tories are over. For that to be true you'd be expecting more Reform MPs than Tory at the next election. 5 years is a long time in politics for sure, but that's a brave prediction. No, doesn't follow.
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Post by Orac on Oct 16, 2024 10:45:47 GMT
It's incredible to watch these 'one party for all' goofs fake concern. What they are worried about is a political party of any sort that represents the bulk of the UK population.
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Post by witchfinder on Oct 16, 2024 11:05:19 GMT
The populist Right in the style of Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk, blame every problem on immigrants or immigration, from crime to failing public services, from housing to desease, its always the fault of the foreigner.
This was the baseline from where the Nazi's began, in the midst of a depression, it was the Jews fault, they were to blame for the depravation and poverty, they caused the unemployment and hunger.
This is not Conservatism, it is something different, and Farage and Lee Anderson are not Conservatives, a real Conservative would not say the kinds of things ( including lies ) that Lee Anderson frequently comes out with.
I absolutely guarantee that if moves are made to form some kind of amalgamation between the Tories and Reform UK, the Tory Party will divide and split, because a lot of Conservatives wont go along with it.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 16, 2024 11:19:18 GMT
The populist Right in the style of Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk, blame every problem on immigrants or immigration, from crime to failing public services, from housing to desease, its always the fault of the foreigner. This was the baseline from where the Nazi's began, in the midst of a depression, it was the Jews fault, they were to blame for the depravation and poverty, they caused the unemployment and hunger.This is not Conservatism, it is something different, and Farage and Lee Anderson are not Conservatives, a real Conservative would not say the kinds of things ( including lies ) that Lee Anderson frequently comes out with. I absolutely guarantee that if moves are made to form some kind of amalgamation between the Tories and Reform UK, the Tory Party will divide and split, because a lot of Conservatives wont go along with it.
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Post by wapentake on Oct 16, 2024 11:20:29 GMT
The populist Right in the style of Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk, blame every problem on immigrants or immigration, from crime to failing public services, from housing to desease, its always the fault of the foreigner. This was the baseline from where the Nazi's began, in the midst of a depression, it was the Jews fault, they were to blame for the depravation and poverty, they caused the unemployment and hunger. This is not Conservatism, it is something different, and Farage and Lee Anderson are not Conservatives, a real Conservative would not say the kinds of things ( including lies ) that Lee Anderson frequently comes out with. I absolutely guarantee that if moves are made to form some kind of amalgamation between the Tories and Reform UK, the Tory Party will divide and split, because a lot of Conservatives wont go along with it. And what do the left in the form of Starmer and people like you do when anybody dares to complain about unfettered immigration? Yep that's right shout from the rooftops far right and slyly mention Nazis to discredit. You parrot on about the rights of this or that until it’s something you don’t agree with and down come the shutters and we are watching you so watch what you say,you and they the epitome of illiberal liberals you wouldn’t recognise a real nazi because you’ve never physically seen one,but if this carries on then you may well see the rise of a real far right something unconnected to the muppet Robinson and who will cause that rise……people like you The security services have said time and time again that in percentage terms the greatest threat to this country is Muslim extremists and the far right hardly figures but no doubt you will only reply that what I say is far right propaganda and I’m a closet nazi.
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 16, 2024 11:32:10 GMT
The populist Right in the style of Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk, blame every problem on immigrants or immigration, from crime to failing public services, from housing to desease, its always the fault of the foreigner. This was the baseline from where the Nazi's began, in the midst of a depression, it was the Jews fault, they were to blame for the depravation and poverty, they caused the unemployment and hunger.This is not Conservatism, it is something different, and Farage and Lee Anderson are not Conservatives, a real Conservative would not say the kinds of things ( including lies ) that Lee Anderson frequently comes out with. I absolutely guarantee that if moves are made to form some kind of amalgamation between the Tories and Reform UK, the Tory Party will divide and split, because a lot of Conservatives wont go along with it. View AttachmentIt's high time that invoking Godwin round here earned a two-week ban.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 16, 2024 11:46:47 GMT
It's high time that invoking Godwin round here earned a two-week ban. It’s the ‘go to ‘place for intellectually stunted lefties . The same method as the lefties who scream in the face of anyone who disputes woke ideology .
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 16, 2024 17:10:08 GMT
For that to be true you'd be expecting more Reform MPs than Tory at the next election. 5 years is a long time in politics for sure, but that's a brave prediction. No, doesn't follow. Thanks for your well thought through reply. If the Tories get more seats than Reform at the next election then they are by definition not dead.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Oct 16, 2024 17:32:02 GMT
Thanks for your well thought through reply. If the Tories get more seats than Reform at the next election then they are by definition not dead. I didn't say they were. You missed the point.
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Post by sandypine on Oct 16, 2024 18:17:27 GMT
The populist Right in the style of Farage, Trump, Le Pen and their ilk, blame every problem on immigrants or immigration, from crime to failing public services, from housing to desease, its always the fault of the foreigner. This was the baseline from where the Nazi's began, in the midst of a depression, it was the Jews fault, they were to blame for the depravation and poverty, they caused the unemployment and hunger. This is not Conservatism, it is something different, and Farage and Lee Anderson are not Conservatives, a real Conservative would not say the kinds of things ( including lies ) that Lee Anderson frequently comes out with. I absolutely guarantee that if moves are made to form some kind of amalgamation between the Tories and Reform UK, the Tory Party will divide and split, because a lot of Conservatives wont go along with it. The problem is that immigration, or at least mass immigration, is effectively to blame for the most part for most things including, but not limited to, overload of the NHS, a housing shortage, other infrastructure problems, the proliferation of minimum pay jobs, fracturing of society, increase in diseases, the rise of the far right (whoever they are), increased terrorism at home and increased risk needing to be monitored and an increase in crime. The fact the government did not increase infrastructure, services and housing is really irrelevant as their democratic mandate was to control mass immigration, as it has been for most governments (and oppositions) for close on 60 years.
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