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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 11, 2024 13:16:55 GMT
Well you are gradually coming to the crux of the matter. The fact is they do not have unions like we do. What they do have is for every large company, the law states they have a kind of government union type thing. What that means is the within their company, there is a unit that comes from central government to work with the company. We simply do not have anything like that in this culture, and I don't believe we ever have. I recall a BBC interview with Ren, the founder of Huawei, on this matter. Ren was like oh don't worry about that, they are here for educational reasons.
In other words, the management welcome the union and appreciates its presence. They don't disrupt but facilitate the success of the firm, hence why they are appreciated by the management. It really is one huge paradigm shift from our understanding of management and business. We would see that as state interference. We see it with the state imposing woke idiocy on those they touch. In China though, the government are like boffins. They are highly educated and very keen on technology, as is the trend across China. It's more Britain 1960s and the "white heat of technology" than what we are today. So the government boffins come in and make helpful suggestions on how to improve manufacturing processes, and they have strong links to the local technical universities. They are also the man of the golden handshake as they carry grants and subsidies with them for this and that. The goal though is all about increasing productivity, as each government region is competing for the highest local GDP growth. Investments in tech give very high payback returns so they adopt the tech, and that provides a market for start up tech firms from the universities. It's a harmonious, cohesive whole, like all on the same side in team China.
They don’t have unions because China is a centralise society with a government that would never allow free collective bargaining . China is ‘ harmonious’ because it would not allow anything other than government control . That's right, but they don't need collective bargaining. They have a purer form of the free market where market regualtion alone is sufficient. What i've heard, and this is partly from American eurtrepeneures who have set up in China, is the cake is very evenly distributed. The whole cake is the sale price and that splits into all the different processes that go into creating the final sale. From the CEOs to the shop floor, you get paid according to what you put in effortwise. They don't tend to have the CEO owner take the lion share of the money and exploit everyone else. You sinply can't exploit anyone as they would just walk out of the door and work for their competitior across the road with ease. So it is a weird combination of state centealisation and perfect free market. Those governemt union people will alaso use their expereince of how all the local firms are coping to feed back into governemt policy. |
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Post by patman post on Oct 11, 2024 13:20:17 GMT
In the UK, inherited culture still influences business and commerce. For instance, Royal Mail claims to be over 500 years old* — coming about just as the Middle Ages moved into the Modern Era — and it is steeped in history, some still carrying over from medieval times. BT is another example, though it's now broken free.
Sometimes Royal Mail's adherence to its past hampers its efficiency and pushes up costs — eg, example, is there any longer a need for a country-wide six-days a week letter delivery service?
Three days a week would be sufficient — say Mon-Wed-Fri, or Tue-Thur-Sat. There are, after all, other services for conveying/transmitting extremely urgent hard copy operating 24/7, all year round.
Twenty years ago Royal Mail handled 20 billion letters a year. This is now down to below 4 billion. But it still needs people to cover the same streets, six days a week, all year round as it did as it did in 2004 and before. The two and three deliveries a day, common decades ago, are gone.
Royal Mail's letter and parcel sorting is probably as efficient as in any other large industrialised country. It's the "final mile" mail delivery requirements (like 93% of first class post needing to be delivered within one working day) that appears to cost. Would it really matter if new rulings had mail delivered 24/48-hours later than the current target?
If three-day delivery was adopted, perhaps a significant proportion of the mail delivery effort could be re-directed towards an enhanced Parcel Force, allowing it to compete more effectively with the other parcel delivery services in the UK...
* Royal Mail wasn't actually founded until 1635 when Charles I opened up a royal posts service, established in 1512 during the reign of Henry VIII, to public use.
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Post by Bentley on Oct 11, 2024 13:33:18 GMT
They don’t have unions because China is a centralise society with a government that would never allow free collective bargaining . China is ‘ harmonious’ because it would not allow anything other than government control . That's right, but they don't need collective bargaining. They have a purer form of the free market where market regualtion alone is sufficient. What i've heard, and this is partly from American eurtrepeneures who have set up in China, is the cake is very evenly distributed. The whole cake is the sale price and that splits into all the different processes that go into creating the final sale. From the CEOs to the shop floor, you get paid according to what you put in effortwise. They don't tend to have the CEO owner take the lion share of the money and exploit everyone else. You sinply can't exploit anyone as they would just walk out of the door and work for their competitior across the road with ease. So it is a weird combination of state centealisation and perfect free market. Those governemt union people will alaso use their expereince of how all the local firms are coping to feed back into governemt policy. That’s not right . They are not allowed collective bargaining so it doesn’t matter if they need it or not ..it doesn’t exist . That’s because China is a centralised and controlled society . Medieval society was highly centralised and controlled. There was no need of craft unions because they would never have been allowed. Its only when society adopted capitalism that unions began to develop. So it follows that China is closer to the controlled medieval society that claims to be working for the common good . You contradict yourself when you say “They have a purer form of the free market where market regualtion alone is sufficient.” How can a regulated market be a purer firm of ‘ free’ market . The truth is that Chinese workers either like it or lump it . There is no independent Labour organisations to support them . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 11, 2024 18:04:04 GMT
That's right, but they don't need collective bargaining. They have a purer form of the free market where market regualtion alone is sufficient. What i've heard, and this is partly from American eurtrepeneures who have set up in China, is the cake is very evenly distributed. The whole cake is the sale price and that splits into all the different processes that go into creating the final sale. From the CEOs to the shop floor, you get paid according to what you put in effortwise. They don't tend to have the CEO owner take the lion share of the money and exploit everyone else. You sinply can't exploit anyone as they would just walk out of the door and work for their competitior across the road with ease. So it is a weird combination of state centealisation and perfect free market. Those governemt union people will alaso use their expereince of how all the local firms are coping to feed back into governemt policy. That’s not right . They are not allowed collective bargaining so it doesn’t matter if they need it or not ..it doesn’t exist . That’s because China is a centralised and controlled society . Medieval society was highly centralised and controlled. There was no need of craft unions because they would never have been allowed. Its only when society adopted capitalism that unions began to develop. So it follows that China is closer to the controlled medieval society that claims to be working for the common good . You contradict yourself when you say “They have a purer form of the free market where market regualtion alone is sufficient.” How can a regulated market be a purer firm of ‘ free’ market . The truth is that Chinese workers either like it or lump it . There is no independent Labour organisations to support them . They all support each other because they don't operate in advasorial mode. There is no need to fight when no one is fighting you. The employer does not try and make the workers work for as little as possible. They are trying to attract good workers and try and do all they can to make the working enviroment comfortable and enjoyable. You get a different atmosphere in a Chinese office. They are far more relaxed. They have a laugh as they do their work. It's not at all what you reason it to be. Maybe that system they have would not work in Britain, but it works very well over there in their culture, as was my realisation. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 11, 2024 18:13:52 GMT
That’s not right . They are not allowed collective bargaining so it doesn’t matter if they need it or not ..it doesn’t exist . That’s because China is a centralised and controlled society . Medieval society was highly centralised and controlled. There was no need of craft unions because they would never have been allowed. Its only when society adopted capitalism that unions began to develop. So it follows that China is closer to the controlled medieval society that claims to be working for the common good . You contradict yourself when you say “They have a purer form of the free market where market regualtion alone is sufficient.” How can a regulated market be a purer firm of ‘ free’ market . The truth is that Chinese workers either like it or lump it . There is no independent Labour organisations to support them . They all support each other because they don't operate in advasorial mode. There is no need to fight when no one is fighting you. The employer does not try and make the workers work for as little as possible. They are trying to attract good workers and try and do all they can to make the working enviroment comfortable and enjoyable. You get a different atmosphere in a Chinese office. They are far more relaxed. They have a laugh as they do their work. It's not at all what you reason it to be. Maybe that system they have would not work in Britain, but it works very well over there in their culture, as was my realisation. They are relaxed because China is a centralised and controlled society . They are relaxed because independent Labour organisations are not allowed to exist . There is no fighting because the government would not allow the fight ..not necessarily because the Chinas workers have a perfect life . There is no evidence that Chinese workers laugh any more than UK workers do when they work . Note robots in Czech Republic youtu.be/Yf13rlQLxwI?si=mcNdLL2NsDAdtauMDubai youtu.be/u3uqokmIk9E?si=lZuUF5lcY_CA-TZW |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 11, 2024 18:31:59 GMT
They all support each other because they don't operate in advasorial mode. There is no need to fight when no one is fighting you. The employer does not try and make the workers work for as little as possible. They are trying to attract good workers and try and do all they can to make the working enviroment comfortable and enjoyable. You get a different atmosphere in a Chinese office. They are far more relaxed. They have a laugh as they do their work. It's not at all what you reason it to be. Maybe that system they have would not work in Britain, but it works very well over there in their culture, as was my realisation. They are relaxed because China is a centralised and controlled society . They are relaxed because independent Labour organisations are not allowed to exist . There is no fighting because the government would not allow the fight ..not necessarily because the Chinas workers have a perfect life . There is no evidence that Chinese workers laugh any more than UK workers do when they work . Note robots in Czech Republic youtu.be/Yf13rlQLxwI?si=mcNdLL2NsDAdtauMDubai youtu.be/u3uqokmIk9E?si=lZuUF5lcY_CA-TZWI've seen what goes on in these places and chatted to them as well. You get a lot of yong girls working in the offices and they are really frendly. The guys work in the factories and that is pretty good work as well. They don't even mind you smoking whilst working on the machines. You can find out from others who have worked there. Linkedin often has reports on what various Chinese firms are like to work for. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 11, 2024 19:02:54 GMT
They are relaxed because China is a centralised and controlled society . They are relaxed because independent Labour organisations are not allowed to exist . There is no fighting because the government would not allow the fight ..not necessarily because the Chinas workers have a perfect life . There is no evidence that Chinese workers laugh any more than UK workers do when they work . Note robots in Czech Republic youtu.be/Yf13rlQLxwI?si=mcNdLL2NsDAdtauMDubai youtu.be/u3uqokmIk9E?si=lZuUF5lcY_CA-TZWI've seen what goes on in these places and chatted to them as well. You get a lot of yong girls working in the offices and they are really frendly. The guys work in the factories and that is pretty good work as well. They don't even mind you smoking whilst working on the machines. You can find out from others who have worked there. Linkedin often has reports on what various Chinese firms are like to work for. You’ve seen videos that could be staged . I still haven’t seen evidence Chinese workers laugh more than UK workers . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 11, 2024 20:09:53 GMT
I've seen what goes on in these places and chatted to them as well. You get a lot of yong girls working in the offices and they are really frendly. The guys work in the factories and that is pretty good work as well. They don't even mind you smoking whilst working on the machines. You can find out from others who have worked there. Linkedin often has reports on what various Chinese firms are like to work for. You’ve seen videos that could be staged . I still haven’t seen evidence Chinese workers laugh more than UK workers . Well I find all sorts of strange things in my research. You can get Chinese internet as well if you search in Chinese characters. That in itself opens up a whole new world of web pages. One was a live CCTV in the offices of a Shenzhen tech firm. I watched them for a while to see what was what in an entirely unedited way. Sure I'm aware stuff can be edited and that is why I do this cross-checking with other independent sources. I often look at details, like say if there is a shelf of books I might freeze frame and read all the titles. I look for the incidental clues. You have to these days since there are so many bullshitters in the media.
Anyway, what I picked up from that was the firm seemed really cool about what you could wear to work. Some of those girls looked more like they were out clubbing. It's the entire opposite though when they are at a trade fair and representing the product to the punters with the money. There they will dress impeccably. The thing is the general rule of thumb is we don't care how you work as long as you do the work and it is done to a good standard. They think, who cares what banter goes on in the factory as long as the goods come out looking great. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 11, 2024 20:15:38 GMT
You’ve seen videos that could be staged . I still haven’t seen evidence Chinese workers laugh more than UK workers . Well I find all sorts of strange things in my research. You can get Chinese internet as well if you search in Chinese characters. That in itself opens up a whole new world of web pages. One was a live CCTV in the offices of a Shenzhen tech firm. I watched them for a while to see what was what in an entirely unedited way. Sure I'm aware stuff can be edited and that is why I do this cross-checking with other independent sources. I often look at details, like say if there is a shelf of books I might freeze frame and read all the titles. I look for the incidental clues. You have to these days since there are so many bullshitters in the media.
Anyway, what I picked up from that was the firm seemed really cool about what you could wear to work. Some of those girls looked more like they were out clubbing. It's the entire opposite though when they are at a trade fair and representing the product to the punters with the money. There they will dress impeccably. The thing is the general rule of thumb is we don't care how you work as long as you do the work and it is done to a good standard. They think, who cares what banter goes on in the factory as long as the goods come out looking great. I think it was staged. Factory workers usually wear appropriate protective wear. They never look like they are going clubbing . Still no evidence that Chinese workers laugh more than UK ones . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 11, 2024 20:36:07 GMT
Well I find all sorts of strange things in my research. You can get Chinese internet as well if you search in Chinese characters. That in itself opens up a whole new world of web pages. One was a live CCTV in the offices of a Shenzhen tech firm. I watched them for a while to see what was what in an entirely unedited way. Sure I'm aware stuff can be edited and that is why I do this cross-checking with other independent sources. I often look at details, like say if there is a shelf of books I might freeze frame and read all the titles. I look for the incidental clues. You have to these days since there are so many bullshitters in the media.
Anyway, what I picked up from that was the firm seemed really cool about what you could wear to work. Some of those girls looked more like they were out clubbing. It's the entire opposite though when they are at a trade fair and representing the product to the punters with the money. There they will dress impeccably. The thing is the general rule of thumb is we don't care how you work as long as you do the work and it is done to a good standard. They think, who cares what banter goes on in the factory as long as the goods come out looking great. I think it was staged. Factory workers usually wear appropriate protective wear. They never look like they are going clubbing . Still no evidence that Chinese workers laugh more than UK ones . No it wasn't. Companies are not hiding anything and like to be open for all to see. I've seen one CCTV even of the London Metal Exchange where Farage worked. It was a totally different vibe. The old Brits with their stiff upper lip and appearances. Anyway, I like their approach. They are calm and reasonable. A lot of people who work for UK firms say there is a lot of bad vibes in the offices and bitching going on. The Eastern thing is very mellow, but you are expected to be smart. I've watched quite a lot of factory videos over that way, and also in Korea and Japan. They are interesting. We Brits could learn a thing or two about their techniques. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 11, 2024 20:51:39 GMT
I think it was staged. Factory workers usually wear appropriate protective wear. They never look like they are going clubbing . Still no evidence that Chinese workers laugh more than UK ones . No it wasn't. Companies are not hiding anything and like to be open for all to see. I've seen one CCTV even of the London Metal Exchange where Farage worked. It was a totally different vibe. The old Brits with their stiff upper lip and appearances. Anyway, I like their approach. They are calm and reasonable. A lot of people who work for UK firms say there is a lot of bad vibes in the offices and bitching going on. The Eastern thing is very mellow, but you are expected to be smart. I've watched quite a lot of factory videos over that way, and also in Korea and Japan. They are interesting. We Brits could learn a thing or two about their techniques. You do realise that you are saying Chinese factories not only do not supply appropriate safety wear but encourage workers not to wear it . Thats not a good thing . If China employs efficient workers then they must be working hard in a factory environment. So why are they dress like they are going clubbing and and not wearing protective clothing? If you are saying that this is an eastern thing then you are wrong . The Japanese encourage safety wear . You have been watching videos that are staged imo. Just as you seem to be confusing offices with factory floors and not providing any evidence of Chinese factory workers laughing more than UK factory workers . Only tattle and a few opinions on both sides . |
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Post by Vinny on Oct 11, 2024 23:00:37 GMT
The wages in China have seen the fastest rises anywhere in the world. It's still 7p for a delivery and still 7p for a unit of leccy. The problem I was hoping people would get around to is, lets suppose someone in a political party in the UK stood up and said the unions are holding us back. I propose that if I become prime minister, I will ban every union in the country. How do you suppose people would react to the idea that you can trust the management and if you can't then just leave. In China, ask anyone about their factory job, and they will say they really appreciate the management for giving them the job and opportunity to work. What I want to know is why can we not have management like this here? Why do we need an opposing force, and if we use one, what does it achieve in practice? Rising from rock bottom to 30% more than rock bottom and 70% less than decent is still abysmal. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 11, 2024 23:52:34 GMT
No it wasn't. Companies are not hiding anything and like to be open for all to see. I've seen one CCTV even of the London Metal Exchange where Farage worked. It was a totally different vibe. The old Brits with their stiff upper lip and appearances. Anyway, I like their approach. They are calm and reasonable. A lot of people who work for UK firms say there is a lot of bad vibes in the offices and bitching going on. The Eastern thing is very mellow, but you are expected to be smart. I've watched quite a lot of factory videos over that way, and also in Korea and Japan. They are interesting. We Brits could learn a thing or two about their techniques. You do realise that you are saying Chinese factories not only do not supply appropriate safety wear but encourage workers not to wear it . Thats not a good thing . If China employs efficient workers then they must be working hard in a factory environment. So why are they dress like they are going clubbing and and not wearing protective clothing? If you are saying that this is an eastern thing then you are wrong . The Japanese encourage safety wear . You have been watching videos that are staged imo. Just as you seem to be confusing offices with factory floors and not providing any evidence of Chinese factory workers laughing more than UK factory workers . Only tattle and a few opinions on both sides . It's true they have lower safety standards. They don't dress like that in factories. I was saying in this office they did. It was a large office with some 30 or so desks and looked like a nice building. Yes of course they would wear protection if they were welding or some other hazadous job, but factory work is much less effort now the automation is in place. They may be watching over the machines, feeding stuff in, sometimes some hand assembly. |
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Post by Bentley on Oct 12, 2024 7:24:33 GMT
You do realise that you are saying Chinese factories not only do not supply appropriate safety wear but encourage workers not to wear it . Thats not a good thing . If China employs efficient workers then they must be working hard in a factory environment. So why are they dress like they are going clubbing and and not wearing protective clothing? If you are saying that this is an eastern thing then you are wrong . The Japanese encourage safety wear . You have been watching videos that are staged imo. Just as you seem to be confusing offices with factory floors and not providing any evidence of Chinese factory workers laughing more than UK factory workers . Only tattle and a few opinions on both sides . It's true they have lower safety standards. They don't dress like that in factories. I was saying in this office they did. It was a large office with some 30 or so desks and looked like a nice building. Yes of course they would wear protection if they were welding or some other hazadous job, but factory work is much less effort now the automation is in place. They may be watching over the machines, feeding stuff in, sometimes some hand assembly. Girls dress quite smartly in UK offices l. I doubt that they need or want to dress as if they going out clubbing. I don’t see how it would make them any happier either. They fed the robots in one of the videos . They didn’t seem any happier than UK workers . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Oct 12, 2024 8:38:27 GMT
It's true they have lower safety standards. They don't dress like that in factories. I was saying in this office they did. It was a large office with some 30 or so desks and looked like a nice building. Yes of course they would wear protection if they were welding or some other hazadous job, but factory work is much less effort now the automation is in place. They may be watching over the machines, feeding stuff in, sometimes some hand assembly. Girls dress quite smartly in UK offices l. I doubt that they need or want to dress as if they going out clubbing. I don’t see how it would make them any happier either. They fed the robots in one of the videos . They didn’t seem any happier than UK workers . It was very clear to me there was no dress code in that office. It's just something that surprised me and that is why I mentioned it. I was like you and thought the same until actually watching it. It's just another thing you learn if you look in places which are not contrived News.
I've also checked Alibaba's offices. They have a giant mural on the wall in the style of the Bayeux Tapestry with cartoon figures of all the famous tech entrepreneurs, like jobs, Gates etc. Those are very strange offices indeed because they are run by Jack Ma (very strange man).
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