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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 8:56:47 GMT
Do a little thought experiment. Work out how much it would cost to build a petrol engine. Does anyone on here know what a petrol engine consists of? Has anyone actually taken one to pieces? Compared to an electric motor, they are much larger and need far more material to build and are far more complicated. Also compare reliability of the petrol engine to an electric motor. In addition to electric motors is the battery. Look a the price drop of batteries in the last 24m - it is huge, but you guys are kept in the dark with bullshit press journalists out to make a buck on some scandal. This is why the Chinese have never been able to export ICE vehicles. The precision engineering necessary especially for diesel engines is beyond their capabilities with the result that their vehicles have never been able to meet international emissions standards.
Hence the focus on BEVs which as you note are simpler and cheaper to build, once a solution has been found for the cost of the batteries. Government subsidies have helped with that.
I pretty much agree with that. It's a 150 years of development. You need the right metals for the bearings and if you don't the engine would blow up. It was never an easy thing to do, to contain thousands of explosions each minute and make them run to 100k miles. All that development work is no longer needed. They will go the way of the IBM mainframe.
China has done the right thing and put all its resources into the new technology and is now sitting pretty. Keep an eye on sodium batteries, reputed to cost only 10% of lithium.
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Post by jonksy on Sept 23, 2024 9:06:31 GMT
Sodium batteries are not the answer Baron they were invented years ago....
Will Sodium Batteries Replace Lithium Batteries?
In recent years, most of the fires in related energy storage power stations have been caused by the explosion of lithium batteries. Lithium batteries are so unsafe, why should they be used? The reason can’t be simpler. From the perspective of overall performance, lithium-ion batteries are still the best among all battery technologies. With the continuous emergence of new battery technologies, sodium batteries have gradually entered the public eye. In contrast, the safety of sodium batteries is much higher than that of lithium batteries.In tests such as overcharge and discharge, short circuit, acupuncture, etc., it can be achieved without fire or explosion. The biggest advantage of sodium batteries is not only safety, but also low cost. In the recent CCTV “Dialogue”, Huang Xuejie, vice chairman of the China Battery Industry Association, mentioned that the cost of sodium-ion batteries is lower. Replacing all lithium in lithium batteries with sodium can reduce the cost by 30%. This 30% is a great advantage.Often a price difference of a few percent may determine the life and death of an industry.
In July 2021, a press conference in CATL pushed the sodium-ion battery technology from behind the scenes to the front of the stage. According to the plan of the CATL the sodium-ion battery industry chain will be built and industrialized in 2023. The increasingly popular concept of energy storage has made sodium-ion batteries instantly the brightest star sought after by the energy storage circle and the investment community.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 23, 2024 10:55:44 GMT
If EV's were better value for money then there would be no need for restrictions on the sales of ICE cars or the cost of EV's to be subsidised. There isn't a need. It's just so the bastards we elect can look all angelic when boasting at the latest G7.
The problem is not the tech. The tech is getting better very fast. It's the Brits whoo are incredibly stupid and can't do anything right. I mean it has got to the point now where I live that they can't even deliver a parcel. They can't read road names and they can't read a simple sign in English. EVs are too much for them. They would be more suited to horse and cart.
So why do the Chinese feel the need to restrict the supply of ICE cars to their population to force the uptake of EV's?. Are the Chinese stupid? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 11:03:14 GMT
Sodium batteries are not the answer Baron they were invented years ago.... Will Sodium Batteries Replace Lithium Batteries? In recent years, most of the fires in related energy storage power stations have been caused by the explosion of lithium batteries. Lithium batteries are so unsafe, why should they be used? The reason can’t be simpler. From the perspective of overall performance, lithium-ion batteries are still the best among all battery technologies. With the continuous emergence of new battery technologies, sodium batteries have gradually entered the public eye. In contrast, the safety of sodium batteries is much higher than that of lithium batteries.In tests such as overcharge and discharge, short circuit, acupuncture, etc., it can be achieved without fire or explosion. The biggest advantage of sodium batteries is not only safety, but also low cost. In the recent CCTV “Dialogue”, Huang Xuejie, vice chairman of the China Battery Industry Association, mentioned that the cost of sodium-ion batteries is lower. Replacing all lithium in lithium batteries with sodium can reduce the cost by 30%. This 30% is a great advantage.Often a price difference of a few percent may determine the life and death of an industry. In July 2021, a press conference in CATL pushed the sodium-ion battery technology from behind the scenes to the front of the stage. According to the plan of the CATL the sodium-ion battery industry chain will be built and industrialized in 2023. The increasingly popular concept of energy storage has made sodium-ion batteries instantly the brightest star sought after by the energy storage circle and the investment community. The main problem European car makers face is the same problem as Kodak and Fuji Film had. Kodak were like the BMW or VW, the monopoly in the industry, and Fugi the underdogs. An interesting thing happened though in the market when digital cameras were first making an appearance. Kodak found their sales of conventional film increasing at this point. Kodak carried on making conventional film where Fuji's manager realised the firm would be dead within a few years and so he made a bold move. They looked at what they had, which was loads of processing labs and thought, we need some other line of business for these labs. The labs were expensive but as processing labs for film they were valueless in the future. Because Fuji moved as soon as it was clear digital would take over, they still exist, where Kodak, the once monopoly is dead. There is an interesting documentary on YT about it.
Anyway, forget all the blithering idiots who write the British moron papers and focus on this very problem. VW, BMW etc have huge investments in conventional car production and engine production. Now back in the time of petrol therse investments were valuable, but now the opposite and they are a weight which is causing them to sink. most investments are on borrowed money, so they are paying off the loans and they still need money for new investment. Over in China many firms simply don't have this liability. They never invested in conventional car production. The firms are new, starting with a balance sheet of zero rather than a strongly negative one.
A lesson in business is if you enter a new industry and are looking at projecting a business plan, you find too little money invested will cause you to lose the entire lot. There is a a minimum investment needed in order to enter a game of increasing profits. It's a like an envelope of operation. Work outside these parameters and it can not hope to succeed. In EV production, the minimum investment is much higher than conventional cars. It's like you either go all in and do 100% EVs with enough cash or you might as well put your money into government bonds since if you have it in car production it will all go. You will look like British Leyland and this is exactly what is happening. Here are the latest figures.
By the way, Dan brought up and interesting point about emission standards. You realise that was a form of protectionism. They set the standards so high that only Europeans can pass them. This is similar to how Kodak were with their monopoly. They became complacent and had it easy. The underdogs were locked out of the game.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 11:27:54 GMT
There isn't a need. It's just so the bastards we elect can look all angelic when boasting at the latest G7.
The problem is not the tech. The tech is getting better very fast. It's the Brits whoo are incredibly stupid and can't do anything right. I mean it has got to the point now where I live that they can't even deliver a parcel. They can't read road names and they can't read a simple sign in English. EVs are too much for them. They would be more suited to horse and cart.
So why do the Chinese feel the need to restrict the supply of ICE cars to their population to force the uptake of EV's?. Are the Chinese stupid? Pollution. A few years back in Shanghai they built this huge futuristic tower with the view to renting it out as office space. It was a super luxury building and yet the demand was not there and it remained half empty. Shanghai had become so polluted that facemasks were needed. Ten years ago you regularly saw people walking around like there were some sort of pandemic. Now supposing you were a very rich company and wanted the best offices. This is why the buyers stopped coming. These fumes kill you in the end. The lead causes brain damage. The fine particles are able to cross the blood-brain barrier. |
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Post by patman post on Sept 23, 2024 13:13:05 GMT
If you had bothered to read my post you would have seen that I addressed the costs of charging*, maintenance** and running. I debunked the scare stories of carbon emissions and pollution for manufacture*** and energy****. * 84% of EV users charge at home where off-peak charging can keep running costs to 2p per mile.www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/latest-news/drivers-without-access-to-home-chargers-arent-buying-evs-says-co-charger/**On average, EVs incur about 50% less maintenance expenses than ICE vehicles over their lifetime. www.recharged.com/differences-between_ICE-EV-maintenance/***EV and ICE vehicles use similar materials in their manufacture — it’s their propulsion and management systems designs that differ. ****Electrical energy is replacing fossil fuel across the board, from steel-making to home baking. EVs are not the only users. The last UK coal-fired power station has closed, and the proportion of renewables is constantly increasing... Off peak may become peak as more people move to electric cars and off peak home heating or at least will have significantly higher demand than now. Electrical energy is replacing fossil fuels as government policy and we are all paying the extra costs to enable this to happen. At some point everyone will be in an EV and the cost will be transferred to the motorist in full. That's all opinion about what might happen in the future. My post countered anti-EV myths with actual provable current facts that can be endorsed with real-world examples.
At the risk of upsetting anyone by relating my personal experience, I admit I was nervous moving from diesel to electric. But brief experience of hybrid motoring, eased me into EV driving. I now drive an EV with 350+ mile range and recharge time of under 30 min en-route if required...
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Post by jonksy on Sept 23, 2024 13:17:00 GMT
The Government has stood behind its contentious plans to start taxing electric vehicle (EV) owners from April 2025, in a move that will see even those who previously benefitted from a tax exemption facing road tax charges. The shift aims to align EVs with the wider vehicle tax system, according to the Treasury which claims it continues to support the automotive sector, despite pushback from EV drivers who enjoyed the tax free perk as an incentive to ditch petrol and diesel cars.......
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Post by Orac on Sept 23, 2024 13:31:44 GMT
Sodium batteries are not the answer Baron they were invented years ago.... Will Sodium Batteries Replace Lithium Batteries? In recent years, most of the fires in related energy storage power stations have been caused by the explosion of lithium batteries. Lithium batteries are so unsafe, why should they be used? The reason can’t be simpler. From the perspective of overall performance, lithium-ion batteries are still the best among all battery technologies. With the continuous emergence of new battery technologies, sodium batteries have gradually entered the public eye. In contrast, the safety of sodium batteries is much higher than that of lithium batteries.In tests such as overcharge and discharge, short circuit, acupuncture, etc., it can be achieved without fire or explosion. The biggest advantage of sodium batteries is not only safety, but also low cost. In the recent CCTV “Dialogue”, Huang Xuejie, vice chairman of the China Battery Industry Association, mentioned that the cost of sodium-ion batteries is lower. Replacing all lithium in lithium batteries with sodium can reduce the cost by 30%. This 30% is a great advantage.Often a price difference of a few percent may determine the life and death of an industry. In July 2021, a press conference in CATL pushed the sodium-ion battery technology from behind the scenes to the front of the stage. According to the plan of the CATL the sodium-ion battery industry chain will be built and industrialized in 2023. The increasingly popular concept of energy storage has made sodium-ion batteries instantly the brightest star sought after by the energy storage circle and the investment community. The main problem European car makers face is The Chinese market is different from the western one. In China, there are large numbers of people look for a cheap and cheerful step up from a bicycle. The western market is somewhat different and the segment of people looking for something similar in the west is very small. The mistake the western car makers made was treating the two markets the same. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 23, 2024 13:32:56 GMT
An EV has roughly double the production footprint of a typical internal-combustion-engine (ICE) vehicle. Both have similar embedded production emissions from, for example, producing the body of the vehicle, which is between five and ten tons of CO2e emissions, depending on its size and production location. On top of that, however, producing a typical EV (with a 75-kWh battery pack) emits more than seven tons of CO2e emissions on the battery alone. link The Environmental Downside of Electric Vehicles - An electric vehicle requires six times the mineral inputs of a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle. At one time, “Saving the Environment” and “Fighting Climate Change” were synonymous. That is no longer true. The quest for Clean Energy through electric vehicles (EVs) epitomizes “the end justifies the means.” According to the International Energy Agency (IEA), an electric vehicle requires six times the mineral inputs of a comparable internal combustion engine vehicle (ICE). EV batteries are very heavy and are made with some exotic, expensive, toxic, and flammable materials. linkWith all that's required to mine and process minerals — from giant diesel trucks to fossil-fuel-powered refineries — EV battery production has a significant carbon footprint. As a result, building an electric vehicle does more damage to the climate than building a gas car does. linkElectric vehicles powered by heavy lithium-ion batteries, are not the answer. |
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Post by patman post on Sept 23, 2024 13:47:01 GMT
The Government has stood behind its contentious plans to start taxing electric vehicle (EV) owners from April 2025, in a move that will see even those who previously benefitted from a tax exemption facing road tax charges. The shift aims to align EVs with the wider vehicle tax system, according to the Treasury which claims it continues to support the automotive sector, despite pushback from EV drivers who enjoyed the tax free perk as an incentive to ditch petrol and diesel cars.......
Bit patronizing of Yorkshire Live — EV buyers were aware that the road tax exemption and other "freebies" were initial nudges to get sales underway.
But they expect to continue to benefit from lower running costs as fossil fuel taxes and duties rise as the use of ICE vehicles is disincentivised... |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 23, 2024 14:05:11 GMT
The Government has stood behind its contentious plans to start taxing electric vehicle (EV) owners from April 2025, in a move that will see even those who previously benefitted from a tax exemption facing road tax charges. The shift aims to align EVs with the wider vehicle tax system, according to the Treasury which claims it continues to support the automotive sector, despite pushback from EV drivers who enjoyed the tax free perk as an incentive to ditch petrol and diesel cars.......
Bit patronizing of Yorkshire Live — EV buyers were aware that the road tax exemption and other "freebies" were initial nudges to get sales underway.
But they expect to continue to benefit from lower running costs as fossil fuel taxes and duties rise as the use of ICE vehicles is disincentivised... Steaming pile is suggesting road tax will be abolished and pay by mile brought in insead. How will the lower the tax burden for those who drive EV's? What's the point of driving an EV when they are doing away with roadside chargers? This is the government of take so they won't be lashing out anytime soon on EV infrastructure. |
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Post by patman post on Sept 23, 2024 15:24:36 GMT
Bit patronizing of Yorkshire Live — EV buyers were aware that the road tax exemption and other "freebies" were initial nudges to get sales underway.
But they expect to continue to benefit from lower running costs as fossil fuel taxes and duties rise as the use of ICE vehicles is disincentivised... Steaming pile is suggesting road tax will be abolished and pay by mile brought in insead. How will the lower the tax burden for those who drive EV's? What's the point of driving an EV when they are doing away with roadside chargers? This is the government of take so they won't be lashing out anytime soon on EV infrastructure. ICE vehicles will still need taxed and dutied fuel, just as EVs will need electricity that 85% of owners can get from home — some on special financial arrangements. Charging by road use seems a fair way of charging. Some insurance companies are including that as a factor in their charging. Just because a few roadside chargers aren’t working doesn’t set the scene for home chargers, charging stations and other publicly available outlets… |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 23, 2024 15:32:01 GMT
Steaming pile is suggesting road tax will be abolished and pay by mile brought in insead. How will the lower the tax burden for those who drive EV's? What's the point of driving an EV when they are doing away with roadside chargers? This is the government of take so they won't be lashing out anytime soon on EV infrastructure. ICE vehicles will still need taxed and dutied fuel, just as EVs will need electricity that 85% of owners can get from home — some on special financial arrangements. Charging by road use seems a fair way of charging. Some insurance companies are including that as a factor in their charging. Just because a few roadside chargers aren’t working doesn’t set the scene for home chargers, charging stations and other publicly available outlets… Who in their right minds will want to form a que to recharge their EV,s which in the winter will only add a few miles to their capacity...Are EV drivers going to wrap up warm in the winter because they are afraid to use their heaters demisters and wipers which will run down their batteries even faster? |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 23, 2024 16:18:45 GMT
The Government has stood behind its contentious plans to start taxing electric vehicle (EV) owners from April 2025, in a move that will see even those who previously benefitted from a tax exemption facing road tax charges. The shift aims to align EVs with the wider vehicle tax system, according to the Treasury which claims it continues to support the automotive sector, despite pushback from EV drivers who enjoyed the tax free perk as an incentive to ditch petrol and diesel cars.......
Bit patronizing of Yorkshire Live — EV buyers were aware that the road tax exemption and other "freebies" were initial nudges to get sales underway.
But they expect to continue to benefit from lower running costs as fossil fuel taxes and duties rise as the use of ICE vehicles is disincentivised... Were they ? Was that known government policy or pointed out by the company that sold/ leased you your car ? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 23, 2024 16:20:42 GMT
EV manufacturers usually guarantee battery life from as little as eight to as much as fifteen years. I have a 2010 diesel car with c90k on it, it will outlive me. Mrs R has a 2008 diesel car with £70k on it, it will outlive her. The point being, if our cars were electric they would be at the end of their life, and unless we spent many £thousands on new batteries they would become an environmental nightmare to dispose of.
People who think lithium-ion EV's are the future, are not looking to the future.
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