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Post by sandypine on Sept 16, 2024 16:39:43 GMT
I was giving a much closer example of the 'black legend' style from modern times much more relevant than 'the Tories have adopted the tactics of telling lies'. I agree they have been telling lies but in the political arena nothing new there. It is not escaping from direct debate it is framing your OP with much more relevance into the modern context. By all means disagree but certain points are of significant comparison. Propaganda is used to belittle one's targets and the British Empire is currently suffering the same type of denigration as the Spanish Empire did largely based on corrupted facts, lies and insinuation as official policy and aided by official institutions. Yes, you totally missed the point of the op. The point being that lies, insinuations, denigration and so on by many Tories and by many of their supporters on this forum, is exactly what I have been posting against for around twelve months. I have even explained what I was doing and why. I did not miss the point at all. It was an attempt to equate the Tories with lying and deceit. I agree with you wholeheartedly in that respect but they are carrying on in the mould bequeathed to them under NewLabour where spin (which is basically lies) and insinuation were common occurrences in their battle against 'the right' but was really against the British people, their culture and their history. You gave an example of the black legend to reinforce your point and as an example, I used it to indicate it is more relevant to the war against the British currently under way. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 16, 2024 16:52:20 GMT
Yes, you totally missed the point of the op. The point being that lies, insinuations, denigration and so on by many Tories and by many of their supporters on this forum, is exactly what I have been posting against for around twelve months. I have even explained what I was doing and why. I did not miss the point at all. It was an attempt to equate the Tories with lying and deceit. I agree with you wholeheartedly in that respect but they are carrying on in the mould bequeathed to them under NewLabour where spin (which is basically lies) and insinuation were common occurrences in their battle against 'the right' but was really against the British people, their culture and their history. You gave an example of the black legend to reinforce your point and as an example, I used it to indicate it is more relevant to the war against the British currently under way. Nonsense, I have been aware of the Conservative lies, insinuations and derogations ECT. since I first began to take notice of politics in the late 1950s. That is why I now equate it with Tory DNA. Exaggerated accusations of 'Spin' by the Tories was part of the Tory propaganda machine. I used the Black Legend in order to help expose the nasty trait of the nasty Tory Party. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 16, 2024 17:10:58 GMT
I did not miss the point at all. It was an attempt to equate the Tories with lying and deceit. I agree with you wholeheartedly in that respect but they are carrying on in the mould bequeathed to them under NewLabour where spin (which is basically lies) and insinuation were common occurrences in their battle against 'the right' but was really against the British people, their culture and their history. You gave an example of the black legend to reinforce your point and as an example, I used it to indicate it is more relevant to the war against the British currently under way. Nonsense, I have been aware of the Conservative lies, insinuations and derogations ECT. since I first began to take notice of politics in the late 1950s. That is why I now equate it with Tory DNA. Exaggerated accusations of 'Spin' by the Tories was part of the Tory propaganda machine. I used the Black Legend in order to help expose the nasty trait of the nasty Tory Party. Why do you think the Tories are any more nasty than Labour? - after all it was Labour who removed the Winter Fuel Payment from pensioners in the full knowledge it would kill 4000 of them. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 18, 2024 10:51:20 GMT
Nonsense, I have been aware of the Conservative lies, insinuations and derogations ECT. since I first began to take notice of politics in the late 1950s. That is why I now equate it with Tory DNA. Exaggerated accusations of 'Spin' by the Tories was part of the Tory propaganda machine. I used the Black Legend in order to help expose the nasty trait of the nasty Tory Party. Why do you think the Tories are any more nasty than Labour? - after all it was Labour who removed the Winter Fuel Payment from pensioners in the full knowledge it would kill 4000 of them. Because of the long history of nastiness by the Tories. There is no 'knowledge' that the absence of WFA alone for some, WILL kill 4,000 PENSIONERS. There are tens of thousands cold related deaths each year, but they include all deaths regardless of age. With annual variations. So pinning down the cause of any increase in deaths due solely to the absence of WFA of pensioners this year will be to put it mildly, difficult. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Sept 18, 2024 10:58:24 GMT
Why do you think the Tories are any more nasty than Labour? - after all it was Labour who removed the Winter Fuel Payment from pensioners in the full knowledge it would kill 4000 of them. Because of the long history of nastiness by the Tories. There is no 'knowledge' that the absence of WFA alone for some, WILL kill 4,000 PENSIONERS. There are tens of thousands cold related deaths each year, but they include all deaths regardless of age. With annual variations. So pinning down the cause of any increase in deaths due solely to the absence of WFA of pensioners this year will be to put it mildly, difficult. So the health minister Wes Streeting was giving a interview about the state of the NHS, he did his usual blame the Tories routine just like you do, then he was told ....but it's not the Tories fault that the NHS will be at breaking point this winter because of you cutting the pensioners winter fuel allowance, many of them will end up in hospital' ... which is the fault of Labour .....
His reply ....well errmm , well errrm ... I can't answer because at this point we always blame the Tories ... I'm lost for words .... Help me!!
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Post by Bentley on Sept 18, 2024 11:10:37 GMT
Why do you think the Tories are any more nasty than Labour? - after all it was Labour who removed the Winter Fuel Payment from pensioners in the full knowledge it would kill 4000 of them. Because of the long history of nastiness by the Tories. There is no 'knowledge' that the absence of WFA alone for some, WILL kill 4,000 PENSIONERS. There are tens of thousands cold related deaths each year, but they include all deaths regardless of age. With annual variations. So pinning down the cause of any increase in deaths due solely to the absence of WFA of pensioners this year will be to put it mildly, difficult. “Labour research from 2017 claimed Tory plans to scrap the winter fuel payment for better-off pensioners could lead to almost 4,000 additional deaths over winter.” www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/sep/12/no-winter-fuel-payments-impact-assessment-was-carried-out-no-10-admits?CMP=Share_iOSApp_OtherNote that this is 2017. Energy prices are a lot higher now. |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 18, 2024 12:49:09 GMT
I did not miss the point at all. It was an attempt to equate the Tories with lying and deceit. I agree with you wholeheartedly in that respect but they are carrying on in the mould bequeathed to them under NewLabour where spin (which is basically lies) and insinuation were common occurrences in their battle against 'the right' but was really against the British people, their culture and their history. You gave an example of the black legend to reinforce your point and as an example, I used it to indicate it is more relevant to the war against the British currently under way. Nonsense, I have been aware of the Conservative lies, insinuations and derogations ECT. since I first began to take notice of politics in the late 1950s. That is why I now equate it with Tory DNA. Exaggerated accusations of 'Spin' by the Tories was part of the Tory propaganda machine. I used the Black Legend in order to help expose the nasty trait of the nasty Tory Party. NewLabour were renowned for their spin and it was not just a Tory propaganda ploy as the MSN noted it as well. Before that all politicians lied and spun but post 1997 it became a new art form. The black legend is an example of how to present propaganda and make it stick. That is an art form as well as repetition of largely meaningless phrases helps, like Rightist, hard rightist, far rightist, typical rightist and deluded rightist. when replying to questions in which there is no reply. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 18, 2024 15:12:03 GMT
Because of the long history of nastiness by the Tories. There is no 'knowledge' that the absence of WFA alone for some, WILL kill 4,000 PENSIONERS. There are tens of thousands cold related deaths each year, but they include all deaths regardless of age. With annual variations. So pinning down the cause of any increase in deaths due solely to the absence of WFA of pensioners this year will be to put it mildly, difficult. So the health minister Wes Streeting was giving a interview about the state of the NHS, he did his usual blame the Tories routine just like you do, then he was told ....but it's not the Tories fault that the NHS will be at breaking point this winter because of you cutting the pensioners winter fuel allowance, many of them will end up in hospital' ... which is the fault of Labour .....
His reply ....well errmm , well errrm ... I can't answer because at this point we always blame the Tories ... I'm lost for words .... Help me!!
The Tories cut the annual funding of the NHS, they also stole the money put aside for Hospital Repairs leading to some hospitals having to place buckets in places where rain is dripping in. No one yet knows just how much damage may (or may not) accrue from cutting WFA from some pensioners. The Tory assumption assumes that it will be significant, but they would wouldn't they?. Only time will tell. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Sept 18, 2024 15:16:12 GMT
So the health minister Wes Streeting was giving a interview about the state of the NHS, he did his usual blame the Tories routine just like you do, then he was told ....but it's not the Tories fault that the NHS will be at breaking point this winter because of you cutting the pensioners winter fuel allowance, many of them will end up in hospital' ... which is the fault of Labour .....
His reply ....well errmm , well errrm ... I can't answer because at this point we always blame the Tories ... I'm lost for words .... Help me!!
The Tories cut the annual funding of the NHS, they also stole the money put aside for Hospital Repairs leading to some hospitals having to place buckets in places where rain is dripping in. No one yet knows just how much damage may (or may not) accrue from cutting WFA from some pensioners. The Tory assumption assumes that it will be significant, but they would wouldn't they?. Only time will tell. Just answer a simple question, it only requires a simple YES or NO, stop being a Labour MP
Do you agree that it will not be the Tories fault this winter if the NHS is full of pensioners who are either starving or cold or both because Labour has cut their winter fuel allowance.
Remember no rambling, just a simple YES or NO will suffice.
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Post by see2 on Sept 18, 2024 15:35:42 GMT
Nonsense, I have been aware of the Conservative lies, insinuations and derogations ECT. since I first began to take notice of politics in the late 1950s. That is why I now equate it with Tory DNA. Exaggerated accusations of 'Spin' by the Tories was part of the Tory propaganda machine. I used the Black Legend in order to help expose the nasty trait of the nasty Tory Party. NewLabour were renowned for their spin and it was not just a Tory propaganda ploy as the MSN noted it as well. Before that all politicians lied and spun but post 1997 it became a new art form. The black legend is an example of how to present propaganda and make it stick. That is an art form as well as repetition of largely meaningless phrases helps, like Rightist, hard rightist, far rightist, typical rightist and deluded rightist. when replying to questions in which there is no reply. Nonsense. Alistair Campbell was the Labour Press Secretary dubbed as a Spin Doctor by the Tories and the Tory press. I see you swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker. Are you fool enough to believe that some spin is not used by all political press secretaries? All you have to do is to highlight it and exaggerate it and bob's your uncle. Just as following the last election Tory MPs and their supporters began the black propaganda immediately after the election result. A bit like yourself. Hmm, Right-Wing organisations backing Trump. Right-wing protesters rioting in the streets. Italy elect a Right-Wing Prime Minister. The German far right party voted in, in a local election. The far-right is recognised all over the world, yet you wish to turn a blind eye to the reality of the right wings of politics. I don't blame you wanting to disassociate yourself from the threat of the far-right. They are a very nasty lot with a nasty history. Four Rightist mass murdering dictatorships in the Western World all in the living memory of probably most adults i.e. Franco, Pinochet, Galtieri and Hitler. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 18, 2024 15:46:56 GMT
The Tories cut the annual funding of the NHS, they also stole the money put aside for Hospital Repairs leading to some hospitals having to place buckets in places where rain is dripping in. No one yet knows just how much damage may (or may not) accrue from cutting WFA from some pensioners. The Tory assumption assumes that it will be significant, but they would wouldn't they?. Only time will tell. Just answer a simple question, it only requires a simple YES or NO, stop being a Labour MP
Do you agree that it will not be the Tories fault this winter if the NHS is full of pensioners who are either starving or cold or both because Labour has cut their winter fuel allowance.
Remember no rambling, just a simple YES or NO will suffice.
_________________________________________________ I suspect there will be, but I have already made my feelings known which are that I disagree with the way the cuts have been made. In my view if the WFA had been cut from £300 pounds to £100 per pensioner, or even £100 per house where pensioners live, it would have been readily accepted by most people.
I accept this cut in the WFA is a bad start, I only hope that things will improve before winter 2025.
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Post by Bentley on Sept 18, 2024 15:47:24 GMT
NewLabour were renowned for their spin and it was not just a Tory propaganda ploy as the MSN noted it as well. Before that all politicians lied and spun but post 1997 it became a new art form. The black legend is an example of how to present propaganda and make it stick. That is an art form as well as repetition of largely meaningless phrases helps, like Rightist, hard rightist, far rightist, typical rightist and deluded rightist. when replying to questions in which there is no reply. Nonsense. Alistair Campbell was the Labour Press Secretary dubbed as a Spin Doctor by the Tories and the Tory press. I see you swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker. Are you fool enough to believe that some spin is not used by all political press secretaries? All you have to do is to highlight it and exaggerate it and bob's your uncle. Just as following the last election Tory MPs and their supporters began the black propaganda immediately after the election result. A bit like yourself. Hmm, Right-Wing organisations backing Trump. Right-wing protesters rioting in the streets. Italy elect a Right-Wing Prime Minister. The German far right party voted in, in a local election. The far-right is recognised all over the world, yet you wish to turn a blind eye to the reality of the right wings of politics. I don't blame you wanting to disassociate yourself from the threat of the far-right. They are a very nasty lot with a nasty history. Four Rightist mass murdering dictatorships in the Western World all in the living memory of probably most adults i.e. Franco, Pinochet, Galtieri and Hitler. Castro/ Che Guevara, Maoist China ,Cambodia,Stalinist USSR, Venezuela ( The United Nations (UN) and Human Rights Watch estimate that more than 20,000 people have been victims of extrajudicial killings under the administration of President Nicolás Maduro). |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 18, 2024 15:48:14 GMT
Why do you think the Tories are any more nasty than Labour? - after all it was Labour who removed the Winter Fuel Payment from pensioners in the full knowledge it would kill 4000 of them. Because of the long history of nastiness by the Tories. There is no 'knowledge' that the absence of WFA alone for some, WILL kill 4,000 PENSIONERS.
Are you saying the Labour Party are lying? |
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Post by Fairsociety on Sept 18, 2024 15:48:38 GMT
Just answer a simple question, it only requires a simple YES or NO, stop being a Labour MP
Do you agree that it will not be the Tories fault this winter if the NHS is full of pensioners who are either starving or cold or both because Labour has cut their winter fuel allowance.
Remember no rambling, just a simple YES or NO will suffice.
_________________________________________________ I suspect there will be, but I have already made my feelings known which are that I disagree with the way the cuts have been made. In my view if the WFA had been cut from £300 pounds to £100 per pensioner, or even £100 per house where pensioners live, it would have been readily accepted by most people.
I accept this cut in the WFA is a bad start, I only hope that things will improve before winter 2025.
OK I'll accept that answer. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 18, 2024 16:02:36 GMT
Nonsense. Alistair Campbell was the Labour Press Secretary dubbed as a Spin Doctor by the Tories and the Tory press. I see you swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker. Are you fool enough to believe that some spin is not used by all political press secretaries? All you have to do is to highlight it and exaggerate it and bob's your uncle. Just as following the last election Tory MPs and their supporters began the black propaganda immediately after the election result. A bit like yourself. Hmm, Right-Wing organisations backing Trump. Right-wing protesters rioting in the streets. Italy elect a Right-Wing Prime Minister. The German far right party voted in, in a local election. The far-right is recognised all over the world, yet you wish to turn a blind eye to the reality of the right wings of politics. I don't blame you wanting to disassociate yourself from the threat of the far-right. They are a very nasty lot with a nasty history. Four Rightist mass murdering dictatorships in the Western World all in the living memory of probably most adults i.e. Franco, Pinochet, Galtieri and Hitler. Castro/ Che Guevara, Maoist China ,Cambodia,Stalinist USSR, Venezuela ( The United Nations (UN) and Human Rights Watch estimate that more than 20,000 people have been victims of extrajudicial killings under the administration of President Nicolás Maduro). That makes seven extremists countries in the Western world, four Right-Wing ones and two left wing ones. BUT my post was about Right-Wing politics and the dangers of the present trend of swinging to the Right of politics. I have always accepted that the extremes of the left of politics are as bad as the extremes of the right, but that is a different debate. So your post is a deviation from the post you replied to. |
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