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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Aug 25, 2024 11:00:56 GMT
I thought the thread is about China and potential economic ties with the UK. It is and it is a subject I would like to debate. The trouble is the thread has been hijacked by shitmongers of the broken record type. We need a more positive view if we are going to do trade together. Trade is a form of friendship. I sell you what you find helpful and vice versa.
My new Beelink is speeding its way across the continents as we speak. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Aug 25, 2024 11:01:25 GMT
It is, but maybe even you are bright enough to see the relevance of Russia to that? 🤔 I only see the thread topic being derailed with your support. If you want to discuss Russia then create yet another thread or join one of Vinny's collection of threads on the topic. There are plenty, which may offer you the opportunity to actually post something interesting and intelligent for a change. Apologies, I was wrong. You're not bright enough to see the relevance. |
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Post by Rebirth on Aug 25, 2024 11:04:43 GMT
I only see the thread topic being derailed with your support. If you want to discuss Russia then create yet another thread or join one of Vinny's collection of threads on the topic. There are plenty, which may offer you the opportunity to actually post something interesting and intelligent for a change. Apologies, I was wrong. You're not bright enough to see the relevance. Posting personal insults doesn't make you interesting or intelligent, even if this is all you have left. Stick to the topic and stop attacking people. |
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Post by Rebirth on Aug 25, 2024 11:09:40 GMT
I thought the thread is about China and potential economic ties with the UK. It is and it is a subject I would like to debate. The trouble is the thread has been hijacked by shitmongers of the broken record type. We need a more positive view if we are going to do trade together. Trade is a form of friendship. I sell you what you find helpful and vice versa.
My new Beelink is speeding its way across the continents as we speak. I agree, and it's a shame that it's happening on all of your threads. I'm sure there are other people who would like to agree or disagree with you intelligently on the topics you have started without screaming about Putin. If anything, improving relations with China could be beneficial to western interests. After all, this was why we offshored so much manufacturing to the East. It isn't like China is going anywhere. |
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Post by Bentley on Aug 25, 2024 11:15:11 GMT
It is and it is a subject I would like to debate. The trouble is the thread has been hijacked by shitmongers of the broken record type. We need a more positive view if we are going to do trade together. Trade is a form of friendship. I sell you what you find helpful and vice versa.
My new Beelink is speeding its way across the continents as we speak. I agree, and it's a shame that it's happening on all of your threads. I'm sure there are other people who would like to agree or disagree with you intelligently on the topics you have started without screaming about Putin. If anything, improving relations with China could be beneficial to western interests. After all, this was why we offshored so much manufacturing to the East. It isn't like China is going anywhere. In the short term it’s vital to Western interests. In the long term it means Chinese hegemony and/ or the slow decline of the West …..imo. |
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Post by Rebirth on Aug 25, 2024 11:26:43 GMT
I agree, and it's a shame that it's happening on all of your threads. I'm sure there are other people who would like to agree or disagree with you intelligently on the topics you have started without screaming about Putin. If anything, improving relations with China could be beneficial to western interests. After all, this was why we offshored so much manufacturing to the East. It isn't like China is going anywhere. In the short term it’s vital to Western interests. In the long term it means Chinese hegemony and/ or the slow decline of the West …..imo. Perhaps they feel the same way, especially with America currently dominating the world and the EU rising like something out of the Third Reich. China is more than its government and regime, there's history, tradition and a totally different way of thinking that many in the west may not appreciate. Sure, be vigilant, but let's not screw ourselves to appease those who are already screwing us.
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Post by Bentley on Aug 25, 2024 11:50:08 GMT
In the short term it’s vital to Western interests. In the long term it means Chinese hegemony and/ or the slow decline of the West …..imo. Perhaps they feel the same way, especially with America currently dominating the world and the EU rising like something out of the Third Reich. China is more than its government and regime, there's history, tradition and a totally different way of thinking that many in the west may not appreciate. Sure, be vigilant, but let's not screw ourselves to appease those who are already screwing us.
Indeed but their ‘ way of thinking ‘ might not necessarily be in the Wests interests . Europe has done very well by US post WW2 hegemony . |
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Post by Rebirth on Aug 25, 2024 12:00:00 GMT
Perhaps they feel the same way, especially with America currently dominating the world and the EU rising like something out of the Third Reich. China is more than its government and regime, there's history, tradition and a totally different way of thinking that many in the west may not appreciate. Sure, be vigilant, but let's not screw ourselves to appease those who are already screwing us.
Indeed but their ‘ way of thinking ‘ might not necessarily be in the Wests interests . Europe has done very well by US post WW2 hegemony . It's the EU that has stood as an obstacle to UK-China relations. Countries like Switzerland have formed relatively healthy trade agreements with China, which the UK had hoped to mimick when out of the EU. I would argue that a lot of the problems are political and that those who want problems are those who want to force us into the EU domain. We have done the EU. It's history. We have to try something new, which is to improve two-way trade and investment, which the UK is currently at a disadvantage with China. |
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Post by Bentley on Aug 25, 2024 12:07:46 GMT
Indeed but their ‘ way of thinking ‘ might not necessarily be in the Wests interests . Europe has done very well by US post WW2 hegemony . It's the EU that has stood as an obstacle to UK-China relations. Countries like Switzerland have formed relatively healthy trade agreements with China, which the UK had hoped to mimick when out of the EU. I would argue that a lot of the problems are political and that those who want problems are those who want to force us into the EU domain. We have done the EU. It's history. We have to try something new, which is to improve two-way trade and investment, which the UK is currently at a disadvantage with China. You could be right but getting close to China will not make us independent , it will mean a change our masters from the west to the East . We are already shit scared of China . In 2016 we allowed a balloon depicting the POTUS as an angry baby during a state visit to London. The year before we were arresting demonstrators against Chinas oppression during a state visit by Xi. |
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Post by Rebirth on Aug 25, 2024 12:30:27 GMT
It's the EU that has stood as an obstacle to UK-China relations. Countries like Switzerland have formed relatively healthy trade agreements with China, which the UK had hoped to mimick when out of the EU. I would argue that a lot of the problems are political and that those who want problems are those who want to force us into the EU domain. We have done the EU. It's history. We have to try something new, which is to improve two-way trade and investment, which the UK is currently at a disadvantage with China. You could be right but getting close to China will not make us independent , it will mean a change our masters from the west to the East . We are already shit scared of China . In 2016 we allowed a balloon depicting the POTUS as an angry baby during a state visit to London. The year before we were arresting demonstrators against Chinas oppression during a state visit by Xi. I would argue that we're more scared of the US than we are of China on matters of economic relations. For example, if we established economic ties which was seen to have undermined American interests we could automatically become an enemy of the USA, end of. OK, it may not be that extreme, but I say this to point out there is already a lot of bullying going on on the world scene. Since the UK is basically in the middle I agree that it would require a certain level of finesse to make it all work. Greater relations with more liberal minded economies may relax China a little in the long run.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Aug 25, 2024 12:45:43 GMT
It is and it is a subject I would like to debate. The trouble is the thread has been hijacked by shitmongers of the broken record type. We need a more positive view if we are going to do trade together. Trade is a form of friendship. I sell you what you find helpful and vice versa.
My new Beelink is speeding its way across the continents as we speak. I agree, and it's a shame that it's happening on all of your threads. I'm sure there are other people who would like to agree or disagree with you intelligently on the topics you have started without screaming about Putin. If anything, improving relations with China could be beneficial to western interests. After all, this was why we offshored so much manufacturing to the East. It isn't like China is going anywhere. Within 30 years China will be the world's biggest economy. They will be the strong ones, and the UK, if it proceeds down the path of self destruction, it will be one of the weakest countries. Militarisation will not save us either. The Soviet Union found to its peril that increasing military budgets whilst decreasing the food available on people's table caused deep social unrest to the point of complete social instability. It fed into the vicious economic circle of declining funds.
I recall long ago I was in a perilous economic situation personally with zero net income and £200 to my name. £200 quid was all I needed to make a bit more money and with that money I used it to make more, and two years on I had a thriving business. This is what we must do now with the small amount we as a nation still own.
The Rolls Royce example is especially poignant. In the civil aviation market there are only two main players. Boeing and Airbus. It's a similar story with Intel and TSMC. Boeing owned the market as Intel once did and then Airbus comes along after huge government subsidy and huge loss making over a long time scale they finally caught up with Boeing and are taking them on. We sold our shares in Airbus though before it bore fruit.
Now because Boeing along with Raytheon and some other US firm I forget were involved in supplying missiles to Taiwan, the Chinese government has reacted strongly against Boeing and prefers Airbus. Airbus are now being handed all the business Boeing were getting from their domestic airlines, some of which are private and some are SOEs. This market is enormous and any CEO can not ignore it. China's air traffic is projected ot grow ona strong exponential so in time it will be even larger.
So bearing this in mind, we then have to consider COMEC, which the Chinese government have been developing for a long time and are now airworthy and running jets similar to the 737 sort of size. The larger ones are due to follow soon. It is as clear as day what the plan is. COMEC will eventually replace Airbus in the domestic Chinese market. Airbus is a stop-gap measure, but it is still a liability. This is where we could have played a part similar to the day I found I only had £200 left in the bank. It just so happens the COMEC are using American General Electric engines, and of course they imagine a sanction could come and hit them any time leaving their project highly vulnerable. They then go knocking on the door of Rolls Royce. They are a firm which have some technology no one else does and they use this to make better more efficient engines. It was developed by our tax money in the 70s when they were bailed out of bankruptcy in a Gordon Brown like move. Rolls Royce's tech is really all they have that is worth anything. In time other jet engines will come along and replace their current tech, but for me the thing to do is use that tech as an investment. They hand over that, they get the Chinese civilian air market. It would have been a deal of a lifetime, but trust was what caused them to turn it down. Sometimes you have to give what is valuable to you in order to get something far more valuable. More than likely all the political propaganda coloured the sense of their decision.
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Post by Bentley on Aug 25, 2024 13:30:07 GMT
You could be right but getting close to China will not make us independent , it will mean a change our masters from the west to the East . We are already shit scared of China . In 2016 we allowed a balloon depicting the POTUS as an angry baby during a state visit to London. The year before we were arresting demonstrators against Chinas oppression during a state visit by Xi. I would argue that we're more scared of the US than we are of China on matters of economic relations. For example, if we established economic ties which was seen to have undermined American interests we could automatically become an enemy of the USA, end of. OK, it may not be that extreme, but I say this to point out there is already a lot of bullying going on on the world scene. Since the UK is basically in the middle I agree that it would require a certain level of finesse to make it all work. Greater relations with more liberal minded economies may relax China a little in the long run.
On the matter of economic relations then yes , the US has world hegemony in that but the West has profited by the US keeping trade routes open for us etc ( the west)to exploit. Not so much for some third world countries . In fact the US has forced regime changes for some third world countries for daring to exploit its own resources . We are part of a Western quasi cartel that exploits everyone else . Im not sure opting out of that will make us independent . China can’t scare us in the way the US can , the US doesn’t need to save face in the way that China does . Open demonstrations against Xi and ( God forbid ) a Pooh bear blimp might seriously damage UK -China relations in a way that it would not for UK-US relations . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Aug 25, 2024 19:16:31 GMT
I would argue that we're more scared of the US than we are of China on matters of economic relations. For example, if we established economic ties which was seen to have undermined American interests we could automatically become an enemy of the USA, end of. OK, it may not be that extreme, but I say this to point out there is already a lot of bullying going on on the world scene. Since the UK is basically in the middle I agree that it would require a certain level of finesse to make it all work. Greater relations with more liberal minded economies may relax China a little in the long run.
On the matter of economic relations then yes , the US has world hegemony in that but the West has profited by the US keeping trade routes open for us etc ( the west)to exploit. Not so much for some third world countries . In fact the US has forced regime changes for some third world countries for daring to exploit its own resources . We are part of a Western quasi cartel that exploits everyone else . Im not sure opting out of that will make us independent . China can’t scare us in the way the US can , the US doesn’t need to save face in the way that China does . Open demonstrations against Xi and ( God forbid ) a Pooh bear blimp might seriously damage UK -China relations in a way that it would not for UK-US relations . The strategy should be to attempt to keep friendly with the US, as per certainly don't kick up a storm, but convince the US that the UK has a right to sovereign decisions and it needs to work with many trading partners, as per WTO rules etc. That's probably a good way to put it in fact since they created the WTO in the first place. You have to have a level of ambivalence about you as well. Ad hoc deals here and there, you know how to play it so they remain moderately happy. If the US kicks up a stink the UK may get other countries saying hey, leave the UK alone, they aint doing any bad, and so it could ward them off playing the asshole. China would stick up for us if we stuck up for them. |
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Post by Vinny on Aug 25, 2024 19:18:03 GMT
USA is a friend and ally.
China is governed by an enemy.
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Post by Rebirth on Aug 26, 2024 5:33:58 GMT
On the matter of economic relations then yes , the US has world hegemony in that but the West has profited by the US keeping trade routes open for us etc ( the west)to exploit. Not so much for some third world countries . In fact the US has forced regime changes for some third world countries for daring to exploit its own resources . We are part of a Western quasi cartel that exploits everyone else . Im not sure opting out of that will make us independent . China can’t scare us in the way the US can , the US doesn’t need to save face in the way that China does . Open demonstrations against Xi and ( God forbid ) a Pooh bear blimp might seriously damage UK -China relations in a way that it would not for UK-US relations . The strategy should be to attempt to keep friendly with the US, as per certainly don't kick up a storm, but convince the US that the UK has a right to sovereign decisions and it needs to work with many trading partners, as per WTO rules etc. That's probably a good way to put it in fact since they created the WTO in the first place. You have to have a level of ambivalence about you as well. Ad hoc deals here and there, you know how to play it so they remain moderately happy. If the US kicks up a stink the UK may get other countries saying hey, leave the UK alone, they aint doing any bad, and so it could ward them off playing the asshole. China would stick up for us if we stuck up for them. It's like asking daddy if it's OK to go out and play, but daddy says no, not with those naughty children down the road. And to think, the UK once built a trade network that stretched around the world.
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