|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 13, 2022 14:24:37 GMT
That is not authoritative it disclaims that at the beginning. It is an aid to understanding and is by no means definitive. He's not still going on about that is he. You can't learn about a subject by googling till you find what you want to hear. Numpty. Block. The monarchy is entirely "titular" - like Steve.
|
|
|
Post by Handyman on Dec 13, 2022 14:41:08 GMT
Exactly, Parliament has all the power
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 13, 2022 16:14:45 GMT
It has umpteen levels better provenance than anything that's been offered the other way. Parliamentary research briefs are the key basis for parliamentary decision making and have a rigorous process to ensure that are accurate but you only quoted it in part. It is vested in the Queen, but in general its functions are exercised by Ministers of the Crown accountable to the UK Parliament or the three devolved legislatures. It then goes on to explain there are many opinions as regards what the Crown is.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 13, 2022 18:18:28 GMT
That is not authoritative it disclaims that at the beginning. It is an aid to understanding and is by no means definitive. He's not still going on about that is he. You can't learn about a subject by googling till you find what you want to hear. Numpty. Block. The monarchy is entirely "titular" - like Steve. Oh do fuck off with your endless attacks based on nothing but fuckwittery I already explained that I knew about those things because I'm married to someone who was a senior civil servant who had at times to say no to ministers. I then gave public references of provenance that backed me up- yes I had to google those but I started from knowing the facts. That you wish to live your life in sad denial of the truth endlessly throwing out abuse at those who try to show you facts is a tragedy but one where you are the main victim and all of your own doing.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 13, 2022 18:20:42 GMT
It has umpteen levels better provenance than anything that's been offered the other way. Parliamentary research briefs are the key basis for parliamentary decision making and have a rigorous process to ensure that are accurate but you only quoted it in part. It is vested in the Queen, but in general its functions are exercised by Ministers of the Crown accountable to the UK Parliament or the three devolved legislatures. It then goes on to explain there are many opinions as regards what the Crown is. Of course the de facto exercise of the Crown is by the government but the relevant issue is that when the government wants to break his majesty's laws Civil Servants have to say 'no' because ultimately it's him and his laws that they serve. Steppenwolf sees that respect for the law as 'destroying Britain' but it's the opposite. It's protecting Britain and Brits from law breakers.
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Dec 13, 2022 20:01:30 GMT
This is just a bland generality. If someone feels something is against the law and doesn't want to do it, unless circs are extraordinary, they are free to resign and not do it.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 13, 2022 20:31:12 GMT
This is just a bland generality. If someone feels something is against the law and doesn't want to do it, unless circs are extraordinary, they are free to resign and not do it. Way to miss the point Their duty is to serve the Crown and that requires them to say no to anything against the law. And anyway if they took your route they'd be able to apply for unfair (constructive) dismissal and get their job back plus compensation
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 13, 2022 20:39:49 GMT
This is just a bland generality. If someone feels something is against the law and doesn't want to do it, unless circs are extraordinary, they are free to resign and not do it. Way to miss the point Their duty is to serve the Crown and that requires them to say no to anything against the law. And anyway if they took your route they'd be able to apply for unfair (constructive) dismissal and get their job back plus compensation Well that presupposes that they know it is definitively against the law their choices are clear if they believe it is illegal. They would only get their job back if it was actually shown to be an illegal request. In many cases the law is not clear cut.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 13, 2022 20:43:25 GMT
but you only quoted it in part. It is vested in the Queen, but in general its functions are exercised by Ministers of the Crown accountable to the UK Parliament or the three devolved legislatures. It then goes on to explain there are many opinions as regards what the Crown is. Of course the de facto exercise of the Crown is by the government but the relevant issue is that when the government wants to break his majesty's laws Civil Servants have to say 'no' because ultimately it's him and his laws that they serve. Steppenwolf sees that respect for the law as 'destroying Britain' but it's the opposite. It's protecting Britain and Brits from law breakers. They serve the Ministers of the Crown whose duty it is to make law, administer law and be bound by it.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 13, 2022 21:07:28 GMT
So the issue is what if the minister of the crown orders something against the law.
I practice often it is done (hence all the judicial reviews this government have ended up in) but it is actually the duty of the civil service to adhere to his majestys's laws. So sometimes they will obstruct the law breaking.
To take a theoretical example. Say the government passed a law saying 'no one shall restrict the colour of car anyone has' Some years later a minister calls for MOTs to be failed if a car is yellow. The Civil Servants should say "no, you have to change the law first'
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 13, 2022 21:48:37 GMT
So the issue is what if the minister of the crown orders something against the law. I practice often it is done (hence all the judicial reviews this government have ended up in) but it is actually the duty of the civil service to adhere to his majestys's laws. So sometimes they will obstruct the law breaking. To take a theoretical example. Say the government passed a law saying 'no one shall restrict the colour of car anyone has' Some years later a minister calls for MOTs to be failed if a car is yellow. The Civil Servants should say "no, you have to change the law first' The problem is it could be more vague than that in that no one shall restrict the colour of a car anyone has without good reason. The minister may say fail all yellow cars because they are distracting and the civil servant says that is not a good enough reason. There may be a bit of head to head antagonism between the two which would not help the situation and we know these types of personality clashes occur even with the best of intentions.
|
|
|
Post by Steve on Dec 13, 2022 22:28:44 GMT
You're trying to change the theoretical example for no good reason. It was only ever illustrative of a point.
Examples of problems come from the Human Rights Act, The Climate Change Act and the myriad of Finance Acts. And then there's the issue of 'enabling legislation' which allows a secretary of state to make law as and when BUT crucially only within the scope of the enabling legislation and by the processes it defines.
This government has found itself over and over on the wrong end of judicial review decisions and is now intent of preventing it being held to account by such reviews. Because at heart it believes it is above the law.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Dec 13, 2022 22:54:25 GMT
You're trying to change the theoretical example for no good reason. It was only ever illustrative of a point. Examples of problems come from the Human Rights Act, The Climate Change Act and the myriad of Finance Acts. And then there's the issue of 'enabling legislation' which allows a secretary of state to make law as and when BUT crucially only within the scope of the enabling legislation and by the processes it defines. This government has found itself over and over on the wrong end of judicial review decisions and is now intent of preventing it being held to account by such reviews. Because at heart it believes it is above the law. I am trying to illustrate that things are rarely clear cut. I accept that a clear breach of the law should not be followed but a clear breach is rarely the case.
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Dec 14, 2022 8:25:53 GMT
Exactly. When Boris prorogued Parliament - probably to stop Remainers trying to block Brexit - he was challenged in the Supreme Court by a Remainer cabal, and the court declared it to be illegal. The law was unclear. However according to Lord Sumption the Supremem Court had overstepped its powers in calling it illegal. He said that there was a grey area between what should be decided by the govt and what should be decided in court and that the Supreme Court had effectively moved into the area of law-making - which is outside their remit.
But the point is that the CS has to do what they're told - or they can be sacked. And if there's any doubt as to whether what the govt intends is illegal or not the govt can get the Attorney General to give his legal opinion. Laws are invariably ambiguous and the decision is NOT up to the civil service.
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Dec 14, 2022 8:40:01 GMT
Not sure I'd want a situation where individual Civil Servents decided on what the Law was - surely they are there to enact instructions from the Government and if those instructions are later found to be illegal then the Minister should carry the can.
|
|